x10 for shop lights

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x10 for shop lights

Tim Sailer-2
I seem to be burning up the 3 prong appliance modules every 4-6 months
when they are powering 2 tube shop lights, with a standard balast. Does
anyone have a module they are using that seems to be holding up? I'll go
to the smarthome ones as soon as I'm out of the x10 ones, but for the
price, I hope they will hold up better...

Tim




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Re: x10 for shop lights

Neil Cherry
Tim Sailer wrote:
> I seem to be burning up the 3 prong appliance modules every 4-6 months
> when they are powering 2 tube shop lights, with a standard balast. Does
> anyone have a module they are using that seems to be holding up? I'll go
> to the smarthome ones as soon as I'm out of the x10 ones, but for the
> price, I hope they will hold up better...
>
> Tim

Did you disable the local control on the shop light's appliance
module? That might be a problem (not sure how but it seems possible).
What's the rating on the lamp?

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Re: x10 for shop lights

Tim Sailer-2
On Sat, January 28, 2006 13:41, Neil Cherry said:

> Did you disable the local control on the shop light's appliance

Yup. Every one I have I've opened up and snipped the wire.

> module? That might be a problem (not sure how but it seems possible).
> What's the rating on the lamp?

It has 2 60w tubes, so I'm thinking 120-200w.

Tim




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Re: x10 for shop lights

Neil Cherry
Tim Sailer wrote:

> On Sat, January 28, 2006 13:41, Neil Cherry said:
>
>> Did you disable the local control on the shop light's appliance
>
> Yup. Every one I have I've opened up and snipped the wire.
>
>> module? That might be a problem (not sure how but it seems possible).
>> What's the rating on the lamp?
>
> It has 2 60w tubes, so I'm thinking 120-200w.

Dang I haven't a clue! Can you post a picture (web link) of the
damage? Some one has to have experience with this. So far the
only time I've seen a socket get burnt was when the wiring used
was under rated. The wiring heated up and damaged the plug
which eventually tarnished to the point the socket burned up
trying to push enough current through the socket. It's for a
1hp pool pump. I ruined a good 20A 15 ft long extension cord.
I'm going to have a circuit put in with GFCI that can handle
up to 1.5 hp motor. BTW, the replacement part was the extension
cord for the motor. It looked like the proper part but after
it burned up it looked to be 10A stranded. The used a lot of
insulation to make it look the correct size. Totally ruined
the motor (caught fire).

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Re: x10 for shop lights

Tim Sailer-2
On Sat, January 28, 2006 14:38, Neil Cherry said:

> Dang I haven't a clue! Can you post a picture (web link) of the
> damage? Some one has to have experience with this. So far the
> only time I've seen a socket get burnt was when the wiring used
> was under rated. The wiring heated up and damaged the plug
> which eventually tarnished to the point the socket burned up
> trying to push enough current through the socket. It's for a
> 1hp pool pump. I ruined a good 20A 15 ft long extension cord.
> I'm going to have a circuit put in with GFCI that can handle
> up to 1.5 hp motor. BTW, the replacement part was the extension
> cord for the motor. It looked like the proper part but after
> it burned up it looked to be 10A stranded. The used a lot of
> insulation to make it look the correct size. Totally ruined
> the motor (caught fire).

The thing is, there's no *visible* damage, but they always fail in the ON
mode, and when I open the case, you smell the burnt electronic smell of
the magic smoke leaking out of some component. I thought at first it was
the contacts on the relay, so I got out an old burnishing tool and went
over the contacts, but it's no good. There's not a lot to these things.

Tim




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RE: x10 for shop lights

Jim Serack
In reply to this post by Tim Sailer-2
Tim,

I think your modules are the victims of a voltage surge when the module
turns off. The Ballast transformer is an inductor (like the ignition coil in
a car) and the module relay is like the points - when they open the current
wants to continue and generates a high back voltage - (enough usually to
spark a regular switch) like in the 4-15KV range. The away the module is
designed to sense the load being switched on and off at the appliance makes
a path back into the electronics of the module (I think the snip you did
only affected the logic not the connection to the load side) - so the module
takes the hit - eventually it blows.

You need to have something else discharge the inductive spike - like a cube
surge suppressor AFTER the module before the shop lamps - or a small 7W bulb
nightlight in parallel with the shops lamps....

Hope that helps.
Jim
-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Tim
Sailer
Sent: January 28, 2006 2:04 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [mh] x10 for shop lights


On Sat, January 28, 2006 13:41, Neil Cherry said:

> Did you disable the local control on the shop light's appliance

Yup. Every one I have I've opened up and snipped the wire.

> module? That might be a problem (not sure how but it seems possible).
> What's the rating on the lamp?

It has 2 60w tubes, so I'm thinking 120-200w.

Tim




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RE: x10 for shop lights

Tim Sailer-2
On Sat, January 28, 2006 18:39, Jim Serack said:

> Tim,
>
> I think your modules are the victims of a voltage surge when the module
> turns off. The Ballast transformer is an inductor (like the ignition coil
> in
> a car) and the module relay is like the points - when they open the
> current
> wants to continue and generates a high back voltage - (enough usually to
> spark a regular switch) like in the 4-15KV range. The away the module is
> designed to sense the load being switched on and off at the appliance
> makes
> a path back into the electronics of the module (I think the snip you did
> only affected the logic not the connection to the load side) - so the
> module
> takes the hit - eventually it blows.

That makes sense. The funny thing is, this is happening on 2 separate
lights in my basement, but out in my garage, I have the same fixture
hooked into one of the hardwired modules, and that's been going fine for
over 18 months.

> You need to have something else discharge the inductive spike - like a
> cube
> surge suppressor AFTER the module before the shop lamps - or a small 7W
> bulb
> nightlight in parallel with the shops lamps....

That's an easy fix. I'll give it a try and let you know in 6 months or so.

Thanks

Tim



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RE: x10 for shop lights

Jim Serack
Tim,

Maybe the hardwired module is trying to tell you something ... It wants two
friends in the basement. :)

I noticed the hardwired modules are more robust than the plug-in appliance
modules - I've ended up making some extension cords with a moulded box with
the X10 Recepticle on the end - particularly for the outdoor christmas tree
- I was blowing up the appliance modules with about 900W of lights... I've
not compared the circuits to know how different they are.

(This year I switched to LED Christmas lights - 1400 of them on a 30 foot
tree - pulls about 90 watts - they look great when they are on - but the
sense circuit from the X10 gives them a very slight illumination when they
are off - I decided it was only for about 30 days so I ignored it.)

Jim


-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Tim
Sailer
Sent: January 28, 2006 8:15 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: RE: [mh] x10 for shop lights


On Sat, January 28, 2006 18:39, Jim Serack said:

> Tim,
>
> I think your modules are the victims of a voltage surge when the
> module turns off. The Ballast transformer is an inductor (like the
> ignition coil in a car) and the module relay is like the points - when
> they open the current
> wants to continue and generates a high back voltage - (enough usually to
> spark a regular switch) like in the 4-15KV range. The away the module is
> designed to sense the load being switched on and off at the appliance
> makes
> a path back into the electronics of the module (I think the snip you did
> only affected the logic not the connection to the load side) - so the
> module
> takes the hit - eventually it blows.

That makes sense. The funny thing is, this is happening on 2 separate lights
in my basement, but out in my garage, I have the same fixture hooked into
one of the hardwired modules, and that's been going fine for over 18 months.

> You need to have something else discharge the inductive spike - like a
> cube surge suppressor AFTER the module before the shop lamps - or a
> small 7W bulb
> nightlight in parallel with the shops lamps....

That's an easy fix. I'll give it a try and let you know in 6 months or so.

Thanks

Tim



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RE: x10 for shop lights

Tim Sailer-2
On Sat, January 28, 2006 21:38, Jim Serack said:
> Tim,
>
> Maybe the hardwired module is trying to tell you something ... It wants
> two
> friends in the basement. :)

I may have to do that. Sheesh. They're *not* cheap, and I have about 8
more appliance modules to go through. I picked up about 40 assorted
modules on an ebay auction about 2 years ago. Paid $60 and change, with
shipping. :)

> I noticed the hardwired modules are more robust than the plug-in appliance
> modules - I've ended up making some extension cords with a moulded box
> with
> the X10 Recepticle on the end - particularly for the outdoor christmas
> tree

Yeah, it looks from my setup to be the same. The hardwired ones are
definately more robust.

> - I was blowing up the appliance modules with about 900W of lights... I've
> not compared the circuits to know how different they are.
>
> (This year I switched to LED Christmas lights - 1400 of them on a 30 foot
> tree - pulls about 90 watts - they look great when they are on - but the
> sense circuit from the X10 gives them a very slight illumination when they
> are off - I decided it was only for about 30 days so I ignored it.)

Huh.  There's that much bleed from the sense? I'll have to put a meter on
these to see how much they draw when they are 'off'. Phantom loads suck.

Tim



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Re: x10 for shop lights

Neil Cherry
In reply to this post by Jim Serack
Jim Serack wrote:

> Tim,
>
> Maybe the hardwired module is trying to tell you something ... It wants two
> friends in the basement. :)
>
> I noticed the hardwired modules are more robust than the plug-in appliance
> modules - I've ended up making some extension cords with a moulded box with
> the X10 Recepticle on the end - particularly for the outdoor christmas tree
> - I was blowing up the appliance modules with about 900W of lights... I've
> not compared the circuits to know how different they are.

Considering that the X10 appliance module is rated at 500W
incandescent I can't see a problem with that. Was it a single
appliance module for all 900W? By hardwired do you mean inline
module (or the super socket? My inline module is rate 15A/120v
inductive and also say do not mount less than 4 inches from
ballast (?).

--
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http://www.linuxha.com/                         Main site
http://linuxha.blogspot.com/                    My HA Blog
http://home.comcast.net/~ncherry/               Backup site


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RE: x10 for shop lights

Jim Serack
In reply to this post by Tim Sailer-2
The LEDs with the lowest threshold voltage turned on very dimly- mostly the
blue ones - an LED will light with less than a 1mA and you can see it when
it's really dark.


-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Tim
Sailer
Sent: January 28, 2006 9:46 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: RE: [mh] x10 for shop lights


On Sat, January 28, 2006 21:38, Jim Serack said:
> Tim,
>
> Maybe the hardwired module is trying to tell you something ... It
> wants two friends in the basement. :)

I may have to do that. Sheesh. They're *not* cheap, and I have about 8 more
appliance modules to go through. I picked up about 40 assorted modules on an
ebay auction about 2 years ago. Paid $60 and change, with shipping. :)

> I noticed the hardwired modules are more robust than the plug-in
> appliance modules - I've ended up making some extension cords with a
> moulded box with the X10 Recepticle on the end - particularly for the
> outdoor christmas tree

Yeah, it looks from my setup to be the same. The hardwired ones are
definately more robust.

> - I was blowing up the appliance modules with about 900W of lights...
> I've not compared the circuits to know how different they are.
>
> (This year I switched to LED Christmas lights - 1400 of them on a 30
> foot tree - pulls about 90 watts - they look great when they are on -
> but the sense circuit from the X10 gives them a very slight
> illumination when they are off - I decided it was only for about 30
> days so I ignored it.)

Huh.  There's that much bleed from the sense? I'll have to put a meter on
these to see how much they draw when they are 'off'. Phantom loads suck.

Tim



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re: x10 for shop lights

Alan Womack
In reply to this post by Tim Sailer-2
 >>  > I seem to be burning up the 3 prong appliance modules every 4-6 months
 >>  > when they are powering 2 tube shop lights, with a standard balast. Does
 >>  > anyone have a module they are using that seems to be holding up? I'll go
 >>  > to the smarthome ones as soon as I'm out of the x10 ones, but for the
 >>  > price, I hope they will hold up better...

Using a Leviton 6391 module myself for Floerescent shop lights, 2 8's in my case.  Nary a problem after at least 2 years.  Someday I will actually put in the second switch at the front of the garage so I can turn on those damn lights.  I also use a Smartpad to control my dust collector, works most of the time.

Alan


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