Setpoints -- heating and cooling?

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Setpoints -- heating and cooling?

H Plato
Further to Garry’s email, I’ve got the last Homebridge category ‘Thermostats’ roughly working. So ‘Siri, set the main thermostat to 22 degrees’ will trigger a MH action.

Right now that action will trigger a subroutine in a common code module. Since I have a venstar and nest, I’ve managed to get those working. Should be straightforward to connect other thermostats.

However, here’s my question. ‘Set the main thermostat to 22 degrees’ can mean either setting a heating or cooling setpoint. The nest has a ‘target temperature’ that should work, and for the venstars, I check if they are set to heating mode (then use a heat setpoint) or cooling / auto mode (then use a cool setpoint).

The insteon thermostats have heating and cooling setpoint routines.

Anyone have any suggestions or logic that might make sense? I thought maybe if it’s june - sept, then assume a cooling setpoint, however this only works for us northern latitude folks. This could be a config_param setting, but that seams cumbersome. Maybe based on outside temps, but what should the range be?

Any ideas or suggestions?
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Re: Setpoints -- heating and cooling?

dbemowsk
Just to throw my 2 cents in here, I would say you could determine it by checking what mode the thermostat is in.  If you base it off the mode and the thermostat is in heat mode, then it would be a heating set point, and vice versa for cooling mode.  Where it might get hairy is in auto mode, but I would think that for auto you could base it on the current temp.  If you are setting to 22 degrees and the current temp is 27 degrees then make it a cooling set point.  Likewise if setting to 22 and the temp is 18, then make it a heating set point.  Outside of that you may have to figure out a way to tell siri that it is specifically a heating or cooling set point.

Dan B.

On Mon, 2016-02-01 at 18:39 -0700, H Plato wrote:
Further to Garry’s email, I’ve got the last Homebridge category ‘Thermostats’ roughly working. So ‘Siri, set the main thermostat to 22 degrees’ will trigger a MH action.

Right now that action will trigger a subroutine in a common code module. Since I have a venstar and nest, I’ve managed to get those working. Should be straightforward to connect other thermostats.

However, here’s my question. ‘Set the main thermostat to 22 degrees’ can mean either setting a heating or cooling setpoint. The nest has a ‘target temperature’ that should work, and for the venstars, I check if they are set to heating mode (then use a heat setpoint) or cooling / auto mode (then use a cool setpoint).

The insteon thermostats have heating and cooling setpoint routines.

Anyone have any suggestions or logic that might make sense? I thought maybe if it’s june - sept, then assume a cooling setpoint, however this only works for us northern latitude folks. This could be a config_param setting, but that seams cumbersome. Maybe based on outside temps, but what should the range be?

Any ideas or suggestions?
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Re: Setpoints -- heating and cooling?

kent S
I'm not sure if this will even rise to the $.02 level, and I know it
will add to complexity and make your job harder, but why hard code
heat/cool? based on things like latitude, time of year, and outside
temperature it should be possible to compute the right mode. The user
sets 22° and the computer/thermostat takes over. If you add in
modifiers, like "I like it a bit warmer in the winter" or "on cloudy
days add 2°" or "in spring we have the windows open, so allow more
slop", etc, then you would allow the user to set a temp, and maybe some
preferences and voila!  

This does depend a bit on the capabilities of the thermostat and assumes
the user has other sensors, but it seems to me to be worth saving room
for, even if it is an FFA (future feature adapter)

Note: I won't be buying a thermostat with only an internet API, so I
won't be helpful for this particular model, but I am now thinking about
how this could work in mh that would allow these features and the
various "thermostat drivers" could access it.
On Mon, 2016-02-01 at 23:34 -0600, Dan Bemowski wrote:

> Just to throw my 2 cents in here, I would say you could determine it
> by checking what mode the thermostat is in.  If you base it off the
> mode and the thermostat is in heat mode, then it would be a heating
> set point, and vice versa for cooling mode.  Where it might get hairy
> is in auto mode, but I would think that for auto you could base it on
> the current temp.  If you are setting to 22 degrees and the current
> temp is 27 degrees then make it a cooling set point.  Likewise if
> setting to 22 and the temp is 18, then make it a heating set point.
>  Outside of that you may have to figure out a way to tell siri that it
> is specifically a heating or cooling set point.
>
>
> Dan B.
>
>
> On Mon, 2016-02-01 at 18:39 -0700, H Plato wrote:
> > Further to Garry’s email, I’ve got the last Homebridge category ‘Thermostats’ roughly working. So ‘Siri, set the main thermostat to 22 degrees’ will trigger a MH action.
> >
> > Right now that action will trigger a subroutine in a common code module. Since I have a venstar and nest, I’ve managed to get those working. Should be straightforward to connect other thermostats.
> >
> > However, here’s my question. ‘Set the main thermostat to 22 degrees’ can mean either setting a heating or cooling setpoint. The nest has a ‘target temperature’ that should work, and for the venstars, I check if they are set to heating mode (then use a heat setpoint) or cooling / auto mode (then use a cool setpoint).
> >
> > The insteon thermostats have heating and cooling setpoint routines.
> >
> > Anyone have any suggestions or logic that might make sense? I thought maybe if it’s june - sept, then assume a cooling setpoint, however this only works for us northern latitude folks. This could be a config_param setting, but that seams cumbersome. Maybe based on outside temps, but what should the range be?
> >
> > Any ideas or suggestions?
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >
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>



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Re: Setpoints -- heating and cooling?

dbemowsk
Kent,

To some extent it does depend on the capabilities of the thermostat, but only in that it needs to have heating and cooling capability and the ability to change them and the set points.  The logic behind it is what gives any of the thermostatsout there their features.  Putting your own spin on that logic is what I find cool.  A number of years ago I was part of a project called Open Source Automation, and one of the things they were working on was occupancy sensing and doing things like this based on knowing who was home and what their preferences were.  The things you are talking about are easy compared to some of the complexities of occupancy sensing.  I think moving things in that direction is where things should move with MisterHouse.  Sure its complex and hard, but there is a GREAT team of people behind the software and in time it will get there.

Dan B

On Tue, 2016-02-02 at 16:48 -0600, kent S wrote:
I'm not sure if this will even rise to the $.02 level, and I know it
will add to complexity and make your job harder, but why hard code
heat/cool? based on things like latitude, time of year, and outside
temperature it should be possible to compute the right mode. The user
sets 22° and the computer/thermostat takes over. If you add in
modifiers, like "I like it a bit warmer in the winter" or "on cloudy
days add 2°" or "in spring we have the windows open, so allow more
slop", etc, then you would allow the user to set a temp, and maybe some
preferences and voila!  

This does depend a bit on the capabilities of the thermostat and assumes
the user has other sensors, but it seems to me to be worth saving room
for, even if it is an FFA (future feature adapter)

Note: I won't be buying a thermostat with only an internet API, so I
won't be helpful for this particular model, but I am now thinking about
how this could work in mh that would allow these features and the
various "thermostat drivers" could access it.
On Mon, 2016-02-01 at 23:34 -0600, Dan Bemowski wrote:
Just to throw my 2 cents in here, I would say you could determine it by checking what mode the thermostat is in. If you base it off the mode and the thermostat is in heat mode, then it would be a heating set point, and vice versa for cooling mode. Where it might get hairy is in auto mode, but I would think that for auto you could base it on the current temp. If you are setting to 22 degrees and the current temp is 27 degrees then make it a cooling set point. Likewise if setting to 22 and the temp is 18, then make it a heating set point. Outside of that you may have to figure out a way to tell siri that it is specifically a heating or cooling set point. Dan B. On Mon, 2016-02-01 at 18:39 -0700, H Plato wrote:
Further to Garry’s email, I’ve got the last Homebridge category ‘Thermostats’ roughly working. So ‘Siri, set the main thermostat to 22 degrees’ will trigger a MH action. Right now that action will trigger a subroutine in a common code module. Since I have a venstar and nest, I’ve managed to get those working. Should be straightforward to connect other thermostats. However, here’s my question. ‘Set the main thermostat to 22 degrees’ can mean either setting a heating or cooling setpoint. The nest has a ‘target temperature’ that should work, and for the venstars, I check if they are set to heating mode (then use a heat setpoint) or cooling / auto mode (then use a cool setpoint). The insteon thermostats have heating and cooling setpoint routines. Anyone have any suggestions or logic that might make sense? I thought maybe if it’s june - sept, then assume a cooling setpoint, however this only works for us northern latitude folks. This could be a config_param setting, but that seams cumbersome. Maybe based on outside temps, but what should the range be? Any ideas or suggestions? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Site24x7 APM Insight: Get Deep Visibility into Application Performance APM + Mobile APM + RUM: Monitor 3 App instances at just $35/Month Monitor end-to-end web transactions and take corrective actions now Troubleshoot faster and improve end-user experience. Signup Now! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=267308311&iu=/4140 ________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe from this list, go to: https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/misterhouse-users
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Re: Setpoints -- heating and cooling?

ggodart
In reply to this post by kent S


On Wed, Feb 3, 2016 at 12:31 PM, Giles Godart-Brown <[hidden email]> wrote:
£0.01 from the land where AC is considered a luxury (UK) ;-)

I've spent about 10 years on developing a Misterhouse heating control system which I really ought to write up properly some day.

In my house we are most sensitive to changes in temperature, not necessarily the absolute value, especially if we are just sitting around.  Consequently I've found that I have to sample temperatures to a very high level of accuracy in order to get the heating to keep them constant (currently +/-0.2 degrees C), and I'm thinking of going even tighter.

I also find that timers based on when the radiator comes on never get the room to the right temperature when I want it because of differences in the outside temperature however I've found that you can get a pretty good approximation using the following method.
Every time a radiator comes on I record the starting room temperature, if its on for more than 30 minutes I record the final temperature and calculate the rate of rise in degrees C per hour.  I then set a timer for when I want the room to be warm and then in the hours before that calculate when the radiator needs to come on from the room temp at that time, my target temp and the known rate of rise .  Its not 100% accurate, but pretty good at getting the rooms to near enough the right temperatures at the right times.

I also have a 'comfort temp' which is the minimum I let it get to when the room or house is occupied, this has three benefits; 1) I can gain a little from the 'thermal mass' in that room, 2) its not absolutely freezing if I need to go into the room for a few minutes and haven't put the heating on there beforehand and 3) when the heating does need to come on it doesn't need to do so much work.

Hope this helps

Giles

On 02/02/2016 22:48, kent S wrote:
I'm not sure if this will even rise to the $.02 level, and I know it
will add to complexity and make your job harder, but why hard code
heat/cool? based on things like latitude, time of year, and outside
temperature it should be possible to compute the right mode. The user
sets 22° and the computer/thermostat takes over. If you add in
modifiers, like "I like it a bit warmer in the winter" or "on cloudy
days add 2°" or "in spring we have the windows open, so allow more
slop", etc, then you would allow the user to set a temp, and maybe some
preferences and voila!

This does depend a bit on the capabilities of the thermostat and assumes
the user has other sensors, but it seems to me to be worth saving room
for, even if it is an FFA (future feature adapter)

Note: I won't be buying a thermostat with only an internet API, so I
won't be helpful for this particular model, but I am now thinking about
how this could work in mh that would allow these features and the
various "thermostat drivers" could access it.
On Mon, 2016-02-01 at 23:34 -0600, Dan Bemowski wrote:
Just to throw my 2 cents in here, I would say you could determine it
by checking what mode the thermostat is in.  If you base it off the
mode and the thermostat is in heat mode, then it would be a heating
set point, and vice versa for cooling mode.  Where it might get hairy
is in auto mode, but I would think that for auto you could base it on
the current temp.  If you are setting to 22 degrees and the current
temp is 27 degrees then make it a cooling set point.  Likewise if
setting to 22 and the temp is 18, then make it a heating set point.
  Outside of that you may have to figure out a way to tell siri that it
is specifically a heating or cooling set point.


Dan B.


On Mon, 2016-02-01 at 18:39 -0700, H Plato wrote:
Further to Garry’s email, I’ve got the last Homebridge category ‘Thermostats’ roughly working. So ‘Siri, set the main thermostat to 22 degrees’ will trigger a MH action.

Right now that action will trigger a subroutine in a common code module. Since I have a venstar and nest, I’ve managed to get those working. Should be straightforward to connect other thermostats.

However, here’s my question. ‘Set the main thermostat to 22 degrees’ can mean either setting a heating or cooling setpoint. The nest has a ‘target temperature’ that should work, and for the venstars, I check if they are set to heating mode (then use a heat setpoint) or cooling / auto mode (then use a cool setpoint).

The insteon thermostats have heating and cooling setpoint routines.

Anyone have any suggestions or logic that might make sense? I thought maybe if it’s june - sept, then assume a cooling setpoint, however this only works for us northern latitude folks. This could be a config_param setting, but that seams cumbersome. Maybe based on outside temps, but what should the range be?

Any ideas or suggestions?
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Re: Setpoints -- heating and cooling?

kent S
In reply to this post by dbemowsk
In my case the capabilities of the thermostat is zero (almost). My
current thermostat is a 1960's round honeywell model with the mercury
switch. I would like to keep it and build a "smart thermostat" around it
in software. That is why I was suggesting replicating a lot of what
current smart models can already do.

I don't think what I want is actually possible, which is to leave the
'stat untouched and use a arduino or raspberry pi to read its settings,
then do magic. That way if the pi or arduino break, relays can close and
I am back to reliable and mechanical.

Add in that I have a reluctance to distribute my "metadata", whether it
be HVAC, lighting, or otherwise, and what I want will certainly be more
complicated than what other people need that are willing to let others
do some of the work for them. :)

I just noticed the original question asked about time of year, which was
the big part of my suggestion. my logic would be something like this
(with minus points for style and consistency).



if(summer && windows != open) {
   if(outsidetemp == hot) {
     cool_aggressively();
     #this could be alternatively be coolsetting(setpoint -2)}
   } elsif (cloudy) {
      coolsetting($setpoint +5);
   }
 }

if (winter && daytime && sunny) {
  open_curtains();
  if(freeze_your_eyballs_cold) {
    heat_setting($setpoint +5);
  } else {
    heat_setting($setpoint);
  }
}




On Tue, 2016-02-02 at 18:02 -0600, Dan Bemowski wrote:

> Kent,
>
>
> To some extent it does depend on the capabilities of the thermostat,
> but only in that it needs to have heating and cooling capability and
> the ability to change them and the set points.  The logic behind it is
> what gives any of the thermostatsout there their features.  Putting
> your own spin on that logic is what I find cool.  A number of years
> ago I was part of a project called Open Source Automation, and one of
> the things they were working on was occupancy sensing and doing things
> like this based on knowing who was home and what their preferences
> were.  The things you are talking about are easy compared to some of
> the complexities of occupancy sensing.  I think moving things in that
> direction is where things should move with MisterHouse.  Sure its
> complex and hard, but there is a GREAT team of people behind the
> software and in time it will get there.
>
>
> Dan B
>
>
> On Tue, 2016-02-02 at 16:48 -0600, kent S wrote:
> > I'm not sure if this will even rise to the $.02 level, and I know it
> > will add to complexity and make your job harder, but why hard code
> > heat/cool? based on things like latitude, time of year, and outside
> > temperature it should be possible to compute the right mode. The user
> > sets 22° and the computer/thermostat takes over. If you add in
> > modifiers, like "I like it a bit warmer in the winter" or "on cloudy
> > days add 2°" or "in spring we have the windows open, so allow more
> > slop", etc, then you would allow the user to set a temp, and maybe some
> > preferences and voila!  
> >
> > This does depend a bit on the capabilities of the thermostat and assumes
> > the user has other sensors, but it seems to me to be worth saving room
> > for, even if it is an FFA (future feature adapter)
> >
> > Note: I won't be buying a thermostat with only an internet API, so I
> > won't be helpful for this particular model, but I am now thinking about
> > how this could work in mh that would allow these features and the
> > various "thermostat drivers" could access it.
> > On Mon, 2016-02-01 at 23:34 -0600, Dan Bemowski wrote:
> > >
> > > Just to throw my 2 cents in here, I would say you could determine it
> > > by checking what mode the thermostat is in.  If you base it off the
> > > mode and the thermostat is in heat mode, then it would be a heating
> > > set point, and vice versa for cooling mode.  Where it might get hairy
> > > is in auto mode, but I would think that for auto you could base it on
> > > the current temp.  If you are setting to 22 degrees and the current
> > > temp is 27 degrees then make it a cooling set point.  Likewise if
> > > setting to 22 and the temp is 18, then make it a heating set point.
> > >  Outside of that you may have to figure out a way to tell siri that it
> > > is specifically a heating or cooling set point.
> > >
> > >
> > > Dan B.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, 2016-02-01 at 18:39 -0700, H Plato wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Further to Garry’s email, I’ve got the last Homebridge category ‘Thermostats’ roughly working. So ‘Siri, set the main thermostat to 22 degrees’ will trigger a MH action.
> > > >
> > > > Right now that action will trigger a subroutine in a common code module. Since I have a venstar and nest, I’ve managed to get those working. Should be straightforward to connect other thermostats.
> > > >
> > > > However, here’s my question. ‘Set the main thermostat to 22 degrees’ can mean either setting a heating or cooling setpoint. The nest has a ‘target temperature’ that should work, and for the venstars, I check if they are set to heating mode (then use a heat setpoint) or cooling / auto mode (then use a cool setpoint).
> > > >
> > > > The insteon thermostats have heating and cooling setpoint routines.
> > > >
> > > > Anyone have any suggestions or logic that might make sense? I thought maybe if it’s june - sept, then assume a cooling setpoint, however this only works for us northern latitude folks. This could be a config_param setting, but that seams cumbersome. Maybe based on outside temps, but what should the range be?
> > > >
> > > > Any ideas or suggestions?
> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > Site24x7 APM Insight: Get Deep Visibility into Application Performance
> > > > APM + Mobile APM + RUM: Monitor 3 App instances at just $35/Month
> > > > Monitor end-to-end web transactions and take corrective actions now
> > > > Troubleshoot faster and improve end-user experience. Signup Now!
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> > > > ________________________________________________________
> > > > To unsubscribe from this list, go to: https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/misterhouse-users
> > > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > > APM + Mobile APM + RUM: Monitor 3 App instances at just $35/Month
> > > Monitor end-to-end web transactions and take corrective actions now
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> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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Occupancy Sensing

kent S
In reply to this post by dbemowsk
Since Dan brought it up is there any new techniques in the area of
occupancy sensing?

The most common idea I have seen is IR motion sensing, which works
pretty well unless you like to read.

I haven't seen as much ont this but a video camera the software called
motion under linux and Mac, and I'm sure similar under windows. or maybe
opencv image/face recognition

I like the idea of a combination, essentially motion running against a
FLIR image. using maybe something like an omron D6T-44L-06 mems thermal
sensor (essentially a low res IR camera)

I've heard of electric field sensors, which I think require a grid of
electrified wires under the carpet. sort of a long range capacitive
touchscreen without the screen.

those "ping" ultrasonic sensors might work, but seem to be short range
and would require some kind of servo to do scanning.




On Tue, 2016-02-02 at 18:02 -0600, Dan Bemowski wrote:

> Kent,
>
>
> To some extent it does depend on the capabilities of the thermostat,
> but only in that it needs to have heating and cooling capability and
> the ability to change them and the set points.  The logic behind it is
> what gives any of the thermostatsout there their features.  Putting
> your own spin on that logic is what I find cool.  A number of years
> ago I was part of a project called Open Source Automation, and one of
> the things they were working on was occupancy sensing and doing things
> like this based on knowing who was home and what their preferences
> were.  The things you are talking about are easy compared to some of
> the complexities of occupancy sensing.  I think moving things in that
> direction is where things should move with MisterHouse.  Sure its
> complex and hard, but there is a GREAT team of people behind the
> software and in time it will get there.
>
>
> Dan B
>
>
> On Tue, 2016-02-02 at 16:48 -0600, kent S wrote:
> > I'm not sure if this will even rise to the $.02 level, and I know it
> > will add to complexity and make your job harder, but why hard code
> > heat/cool? based on things like latitude, time of year, and outside
> > temperature it should be possible to compute the right mode. The user
> > sets 22° and the computer/thermostat takes over. If you add in
> > modifiers, like "I like it a bit warmer in the winter" or "on cloudy
> > days add 2°" or "in spring we have the windows open, so allow more
> > slop", etc, then you would allow the user to set a temp, and maybe some
> > preferences and voila!  
> >
> > This does depend a bit on the capabilities of the thermostat and assumes
> > the user has other sensors, but it seems to me to be worth saving room
> > for, even if it is an FFA (future feature adapter)
> >
> > Note: I won't be buying a thermostat with only an internet API, so I
> > won't be helpful for this particular model, but I am now thinking about
> > how this could work in mh that would allow these features and the
> > various "thermostat drivers" could access it.
> > On Mon, 2016-02-01 at 23:34 -0600, Dan Bemowski wrote:
> > >
> > > Just to throw my 2 cents in here, I would say you could determine it
> > > by checking what mode the thermostat is in.  If you base it off the
> > > mode and the thermostat is in heat mode, then it would be a heating
> > > set point, and vice versa for cooling mode.  Where it might get hairy
> > > is in auto mode, but I would think that for auto you could base it on
> > > the current temp.  If you are setting to 22 degrees and the current
> > > temp is 27 degrees then make it a cooling set point.  Likewise if
> > > setting to 22 and the temp is 18, then make it a heating set point.
> > >  Outside of that you may have to figure out a way to tell siri that it
> > > is specifically a heating or cooling set point.
> > >
> > >
> > > Dan B.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, 2016-02-01 at 18:39 -0700, H Plato wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Further to Garry’s email, I’ve got the last Homebridge category ‘Thermostats’ roughly working. So ‘Siri, set the main thermostat to 22 degrees’ will trigger a MH action.
> > > >
> > > > Right now that action will trigger a subroutine in a common code module. Since I have a venstar and nest, I’ve managed to get those working. Should be straightforward to connect other thermostats.
> > > >
> > > > However, here’s my question. ‘Set the main thermostat to 22 degrees’ can mean either setting a heating or cooling setpoint. The nest has a ‘target temperature’ that should work, and for the venstars, I check if they are set to heating mode (then use a heat setpoint) or cooling / auto mode (then use a cool setpoint).
> > > >
> > > > The insteon thermostats have heating and cooling setpoint routines.
> > > >
> > > > Anyone have any suggestions or logic that might make sense? I thought maybe if it’s june - sept, then assume a cooling setpoint, however this only works for us northern latitude folks. This could be a config_param setting, but that seams cumbersome. Maybe based on outside temps, but what should the range be?
> > > >
> > > > Any ideas or suggestions?
> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >
> >
> >
> >
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Re: Setpoints -- heating and cooling?

dbemowsk
In reply to this post by kent S
Kent,

What you are talking about IS actually possible.  It would require a slight modification to your existing setup putting some relays in the path of the thermostat with one relay being a 4P2T relay that would switch between the mercury switch dial thermostat on your green, yellow blue and orange thermostat wires over to a set of relays controlled by the Raspberry Pi to control your heating and cooling with the Pi.  When power is off to the Pi and thus not controlling the 4P2T relay, it would default to the old dial thermostat.  I could draw you the diagram if you'd like.  You would then just need to figure out how you would do the temperature sensing and relay control with the Pi.  That might actually be a better task to offload to an Arduino and control that with the Pi.

Dan B

On Wed, 2016-02-03 at 15:20 -0600, kent S wrote:
In my case the capabilities of the thermostat is zero (almost). My
current thermostat is a 1960's round honeywell model with the mercury
switch. I would like to keep it and build a "smart thermostat" around it
in software. That is why I was suggesting replicating a lot of what
current smart models can already do. 

I don't think what I want is actually possible, which is to leave the
'stat untouched and use a arduino or raspberry pi to read its settings,
then do magic. That way if the pi or arduino break, relays can close and
I am back to reliable and mechanical. 

Add in that I have a reluctance to distribute my "metadata", whether it
be HVAC, lighting, or otherwise, and what I want will certainly be more
complicated than what other people need that are willing to let others
do some of the work for them. :)

I just noticed the original question asked about time of year, which was
the big part of my suggestion. my logic would be something like this
(with minus points for style and consistency).



if(summer && windows != open) {
   if(outsidetemp == hot) {
     cool_aggressively();
     #this could be alternatively be coolsetting(setpoint -2)}
   } elsif (cloudy) {
      coolsetting($setpoint +5);
   }
 }

if (winter && daytime && sunny) {
  open_curtains();
  if(freeze_your_eyballs_cold) {
    heat_setting($setpoint +5);
  } else {
    heat_setting($setpoint);
  }
}




On Tue, 2016-02-02 at 18:02 -0600, Dan Bemowski wrote:
Kent, To some extent it does depend on the capabilities of the thermostat, but only in that it needs to have heating and cooling capability and the ability to change them and the set points. The logic behind it is what gives any of the thermostatsout there their features. Putting your own spin on that logic is what I find cool. A number of years ago I was part of a project called Open Source Automation, and one of the things they were working on was occupancy sensing and doing things like this based on knowing who was home and what their preferences were. The things you are talking about are easy compared to some of the complexities of occupancy sensing. I think moving things in that direction is where things should move with MisterHouse. Sure its complex and hard, but there is a GREAT team of people behind the software and in time it will get there. Dan B On Tue, 2016-02-02 at 16:48 -0600, kent S wrote:
I'm not sure if this will even rise to the $.02 level, and I know it will add to complexity and make your job harder, but why hard code heat/cool? based on things like latitude, time of year, and outside temperature it should be possible to compute the right mode. The user sets 22° and the computer/thermostat takes over. If you add in modifiers, like "I like it a bit warmer in the winter" or "on cloudy days add 2°" or "in spring we have the windows open, so allow more slop", etc, then you would allow the user to set a temp, and maybe some preferences and voila! This does depend a bit on the capabilities of the thermostat and assumes the user has other sensors, but it seems to me to be worth saving room for, even if it is an FFA (future feature adapter) Note: I won't be buying a thermostat with only an internet API, so I won't be helpful for this particular model, but I am now thinking about how this could work in mh that would allow these features and the various "thermostat drivers" could access it. On Mon, 2016-02-01 at 23:34 -0600, Dan Bemowski wrote:
Just to throw my 2 cents in here, I would say you could determine it by checking what mode the thermostat is in. If you base it off the mode and the thermostat is in heat mode, then it would be a heating set point, and vice versa for cooling mode. Where it might get hairy is in auto mode, but I would think that for auto you could base it on the current temp. If you are setting to 22 degrees and the current temp is 27 degrees then make it a cooling set point. Likewise if setting to 22 and the temp is 18, then make it a heating set point. Outside of that you may have to figure out a way to tell siri that it is specifically a heating or cooling set point. Dan B. On Mon, 2016-02-01 at 18:39 -0700, H Plato wrote:
Further to Garry’s email, I’ve got the last Homebridge category ‘Thermostats’ roughly working. So ‘Siri, set the main thermostat to 22 degrees’ will trigger a MH action. Right now that action will trigger a subroutine in a common code module. Since I have a venstar and nest, I’ve managed to get those working. Should be straightforward to connect other thermostats. However, here’s my question. ‘Set the main thermostat to 22 degrees’ can mean either setting a heating or cooling setpoint. The nest has a ‘target temperature’ that should work, and for the venstars, I check if they are set to heating mode (then use a heat setpoint) or cooling / auto mode (then use a cool setpoint). The insteon thermostats have heating and cooling setpoint routines. Anyone have any suggestions or logic that might make sense? I thought maybe if it’s june - sept, then assume a cooling setpoint, however this only works for us northern latitude folks. This could be a config_param setting, but that seams cumbersome. Maybe based on outside temps, but what should the range be? Any ideas or suggestions? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Site24x7 APM Insight: Get Deep Visibility into Application Performance APM + Mobile APM + RUM: Monitor 3 App instances at just $35/Month Monitor end-to-end web transactions and take corrective actions now Troubleshoot faster and improve end-user experience. Signup Now! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=267308311&iu=/4140 ________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe from this list, go to: https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/misterhouse-users
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Re: Occupancy Sensing

dbemowsk
In reply to this post by kent S
When I was working with the Open Source Autometion (OSA) team, the software was completely object oriented.  For an automation setup you would define "person" objects.  There were different ways to update a "person" object, such as monitoring cell phones to see whose cell phone was at home on top of motion sensing and things.  I had also had some discussion back in those days on ways to do vehicle sensing to know whose vehicle was home, increasing the reliability of a "person" object.  Once you knew who was home, you could use things like thermostat preferences tied to that "person" object or objects.  If you had ways to monitor where each person was in the house and you had zone controlled heating and cooling, you could control different areas of the house based on each users temp settings.  This starts getting into a pretty complex system though, but could possibly be done to some extents.

Dan B


On Wed, 2016-02-03 at 15:43 -0600, kent S wrote:
Since Dan brought it up is there any new techniques in the area of
occupancy sensing?

The most common idea I have seen is IR motion sensing, which works
pretty well unless you like to read.

I haven't seen as much ont this but a video camera the software called
motion under linux and Mac, and I'm sure similar under windows. or maybe
opencv image/face recognition

I like the idea of a combination, essentially motion running against a
FLIR image. using maybe something like an omron D6T-44L-06 mems thermal
sensor (essentially a low res IR camera)

I've heard of electric field sensors, which I think require a grid of
electrified wires under the carpet. sort of a long range capacitive
touchscreen without the screen.

those "ping" ultrasonic sensors might work, but seem to be short range
and would require some kind of servo to do scanning.




On Tue, 2016-02-02 at 18:02 -0600, Dan Bemowski wrote:
Kent, To some extent it does depend on the capabilities of the thermostat, but only in that it needs to have heating and cooling capability and the ability to change them and the set points. The logic behind it is what gives any of the thermostatsout there their features. Putting your own spin on that logic is what I find cool. A number of years ago I was part of a project called Open Source Automation, and one of the things they were working on was occupancy sensing and doing things like this based on knowing who was home and what their preferences were. The things you are talking about are easy compared to some of the complexities of occupancy sensing. I think moving things in that direction is where things should move with MisterHouse. Sure its complex and hard, but there is a GREAT team of people behind the software and in time it will get there. Dan B On Tue, 2016-02-02 at 16:48 -0600, kent S wrote:
I'm not sure if this will even rise to the $.02 level, and I know it will add to complexity and make your job harder, but why hard code heat/cool? based on things like latitude, time of year, and outside temperature it should be possible to compute the right mode. The user sets 22° and the computer/thermostat takes over. If you add in modifiers, like "I like it a bit warmer in the winter" or "on cloudy days add 2°" or "in spring we have the windows open, so allow more slop", etc, then you would allow the user to set a temp, and maybe some preferences and voila! This does depend a bit on the capabilities of the thermostat and assumes the user has other sensors, but it seems to me to be worth saving room for, even if it is an FFA (future feature adapter) Note: I won't be buying a thermostat with only an internet API, so I won't be helpful for this particular model, but I am now thinking about how this could work in mh that would allow these features and the various "thermostat drivers" could access it. On Mon, 2016-02-01 at 23:34 -0600, Dan Bemowski wrote:
Just to throw my 2 cents in here, I would say you could determine it by checking what mode the thermostat is in. If you base it off the mode and the thermostat is in heat mode, then it would be a heating set point, and vice versa for cooling mode. Where it might get hairy is in auto mode, but I would think that for auto you could base it on the current temp. If you are setting to 22 degrees and the current temp is 27 degrees then make it a cooling set point. Likewise if setting to 22 and the temp is 18, then make it a heating set point. Outside of that you may have to figure out a way to tell siri that it is specifically a heating or cooling set point. Dan B. On Mon, 2016-02-01 at 18:39 -0700, H Plato wrote:
Further to Garry’s email, I’ve got the last Homebridge category ‘Thermostats’ roughly working. So ‘Siri, set the main thermostat to 22 degrees’ will trigger a MH action. Right now that action will trigger a subroutine in a common code module. Since I have a venstar and nest, I’ve managed to get those working. Should be straightforward to connect other thermostats. However, here’s my question. ‘Set the main thermostat to 22 degrees’ can mean either setting a heating or cooling setpoint. The nest has a ‘target temperature’ that should work, and for the venstars, I check if they are set to heating mode (then use a heat setpoint) or cooling / auto mode (then use a cool setpoint). The insteon thermostats have heating and cooling setpoint routines. Anyone have any suggestions or logic that might make sense? I thought maybe if it’s june - sept, then assume a cooling setpoint, however this only works for us northern latitude folks. This could be a config_param setting, but that seams cumbersome. Maybe based on outside temps, but what should the range be? Any ideas or suggestions? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Site24x7 APM Insight: Get Deep Visibility into Application Performance APM + Mobile APM + RUM: Monitor 3 App instances at just $35/Month Monitor end-to-end web transactions and take corrective actions now Troubleshoot faster and improve end-user experience. Signup Now! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=267308311&iu=/4140 ________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe from this list, go to: https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/misterhouse-users
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Re: Setpoints -- heating and cooling?

kent S
In reply to this post by dbemowsk
The relay part isn't too bad, I would add a dead-man so if the pi locked
up it would fail to mechanical.

The part I don't see how to do is read the dial with the pi, so I can
still use it as a control. It can be done, but not with out
modification. I could buy a modern version, they do away with the
dangerous mercury, maybe I could tap into that more easily then putting
some kind of position sensor on the current one.

Preserving old thermostats isn't really my hobby. I should just stop
being a luddite.


On Wed, 2016-02-03 at 23:20 -0600, Dan Bemowski wrote:

> Kent,
>
>
> What you are talking about IS actually possible.  It would require a
> slight modification to your existing setup putting some relays in the
> path of the thermostat with one relay being a 4P2T relay that would
> switch between the mercury switch dial thermostat on your green,
> yellow blue and orange thermostat wires over to a set of relays
> controlled by the Raspberry Pi to control your heating and cooling
> with the Pi.  When power is off to the Pi and thus not controlling the
> 4P2T relay, it would default to the old dial thermostat.  I could draw
> you the diagram if you'd like.  You would then just need to figure out
> how you would do the temperature sensing and relay control with the
> Pi.  That might actually be a better task to offload to an Arduino and
> control that with the Pi.
>
>
> Dan B
>
>
> On Wed, 2016-02-03 at 15:20 -0600, kent S wrote:
> > In my case the capabilities of the thermostat is zero (almost). My
> > current thermostat is a 1960's round honeywell model with the mercury
> > switch. I would like to keep it and build a "smart thermostat" around it
> > in software. That is why I was suggesting replicating a lot of what
> > current smart models can already do.
> >
> > I don't think what I want is actually possible, which is to leave the
> > 'stat untouched and use a arduino or raspberry pi to read its settings,
> > then do magic. That way if the pi or arduino break, relays can close and
> > I am back to reliable and mechanical.
> >
> > Add in that I have a reluctance to distribute my "metadata", whether it
> > be HVAC, lighting, or otherwise, and what I want will certainly be more
> > complicated than what other people need that are willing to let others
> > do some of the work for them. :)
> >
> > I just noticed the original question asked about time of year, which was
> > the big part of my suggestion. my logic would be something like this
> > (with minus points for style and consistency).
> >
> >
> >
> > if(summer && windows != open) {
> >    if(outsidetemp == hot) {
> >      cool_aggressively();
> >      #this could be alternatively be coolsetting(setpoint -2)}
> >    } elsif (cloudy) {
> >       coolsetting($setpoint +5);
> >    }
> >  }
> >
> > if (winter && daytime && sunny) {
> >   open_curtains();
> >   if(freeze_your_eyballs_cold) {
> >     heat_setting($setpoint +5);
> >   } else {
> >     heat_setting($setpoint);
> >   }
> > }
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, 2016-02-02 at 18:02 -0600, Dan Bemowski wrote:
> > >
> > > Kent,
> > >
> > >
> > > To some extent it does depend on the capabilities of the thermostat,
> > > but only in that it needs to have heating and cooling capability and
> > > the ability to change them and the set points.  The logic behind it is
> > > what gives any of the thermostatsout there their features.  Putting
> > > your own spin on that logic is what I find cool.  A number of years
> > > ago I was part of a project called Open Source Automation, and one of
> > > the things they were working on was occupancy sensing and doing things
> > > like this based on knowing who was home and what their preferences
> > > were.  The things you are talking about are easy compared to some of
> > > the complexities of occupancy sensing.  I think moving things in that
> > > direction is where things should move with MisterHouse.  Sure its
> > > complex and hard, but there is a GREAT team of people behind the
> > > software and in time it will get there.
> > >
> > >
> > > Dan B
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, 2016-02-02 at 16:48 -0600, kent S wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I'm not sure if this will even rise to the $.02 level, and I know it
> > > > will add to complexity and make your job harder, but why hard code
> > > > heat/cool? based on things like latitude, time of year, and outside
> > > > temperature it should be possible to compute the right mode. The user
> > > > sets 22° and the computer/thermostat takes over. If you add in
> > > > modifiers, like "I like it a bit warmer in the winter" or "on cloudy
> > > > days add 2°" or "in spring we have the windows open, so allow more
> > > > slop", etc, then you would allow the user to set a temp, and maybe some
> > > > preferences and voila!  
> > > >
> > > > This does depend a bit on the capabilities of the thermostat and assumes
> > > > the user has other sensors, but it seems to me to be worth saving room
> > > > for, even if it is an FFA (future feature adapter)
> > > >
> > > > Note: I won't be buying a thermostat with only an internet API, so I
> > > > won't be helpful for this particular model, but I am now thinking about
> > > > how this could work in mh that would allow these features and the
> > > > various "thermostat drivers" could access it.
> > > > On Mon, 2016-02-01 at 23:34 -0600, Dan Bemowski wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Just to throw my 2 cents in here, I would say you could determine it
> > > > > by checking what mode the thermostat is in.  If you base it off the
> > > > > mode and the thermostat is in heat mode, then it would be a heating
> > > > > set point, and vice versa for cooling mode.  Where it might get hairy
> > > > > is in auto mode, but I would think that for auto you could base it on
> > > > > the current temp.  If you are setting to 22 degrees and the current
> > > > > temp is 27 degrees then make it a cooling set point.  Likewise if
> > > > > setting to 22 and the temp is 18, then make it a heating set point.
> > > > >  Outside of that you may have to figure out a way to tell siri that it
> > > > > is specifically a heating or cooling set point.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Dan B.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mon, 2016-02-01 at 18:39 -0700, H Plato wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Further to Garry’s email, I’ve got the last Homebridge category ‘Thermostats’ roughly working. So ‘Siri, set the main thermostat to 22 degrees’ will trigger a MH action.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Right now that action will trigger a subroutine in a common code module. Since I have a venstar and nest, I’ve managed to get those working. Should be straightforward to connect other thermostats.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > However, here’s my question. ‘Set the main thermostat to 22 degrees’ can mean either setting a heating or cooling setpoint. The nest has a ‘target temperature’ that should work, and for the venstars, I check if they are set to heating mode (then use a heat setpoint) or cooling / auto mode (then use a cool setpoint).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The insteon thermostats have heating and cooling setpoint routines.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Anyone have any suggestions or logic that might make sense? I thought maybe if it’s june - sept, then assume a cooling setpoint, however this only works for us northern latitude folks. This could be a config_param setting, but that seams cumbersome. Maybe based on outside temps, but what should the range be?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Any ideas or suggestions?
> > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
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> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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Re: Occupancy Sensing

kent S
In reply to this post by dbemowsk
if the car is fairly modern, tire pressue sensors would probably work.
they have unique serial numbers. some rtl_sdr software and a $20 dongle
is all it would take.
https://github.com/jboone/tpms

You could also use this to tell when the neighbors are home or not, so
you can turn up the stereo to deafening levels!



On Wed, 2016-02-03 at 23:36 -0600, Dan Bemowski wrote:

> When I was working with the Open Source Autometion (OSA) team, the
> software was completely object oriented.  For an automation setup you
> would define "person" objects.  There were different ways to update a
> "person" object, such as monitoring cell phones to see whose cell
> phone was at home on top of motion sensing and things.  I had also had
> some discussion back in those days on ways to do vehicle sensing to
> know whose vehicle was home, increasing the reliability of a "person"
> object.  Once you knew who was home, you could use things like
> thermostat preferences tied to that "person" object or objects.  If
> you had ways to monitor where each person was in the house and you had
> zone controlled heating and cooling, you could control different areas
> of the house based on each users temp settings.  This starts getting
> into a pretty complex system though, but could possibly be done to
> some extents.
>
>
> Dan B
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, 2016-02-03 at 15:43 -0600, kent S wrote:
> > Since Dan brought it up is there any new techniques in the area of
> > occupancy sensing?
> >
> > The most common idea I have seen is IR motion sensing, which works
> > pretty well unless you like to read.
> >
> > I haven't seen as much ont this but a video camera the software called
> > motion under linux and Mac, and I'm sure similar under windows. or maybe
> > opencv image/face recognition
> >
> > I like the idea of a combination, essentially motion running against a
> > FLIR image. using maybe something like an omron D6T-44L-06 mems thermal
> > sensor (essentially a low res IR camera)
> >
> > I've heard of electric field sensors, which I think require a grid of
> > electrified wires under the carpet. sort of a long range capacitive
> > touchscreen without the screen.
> >
> > those "ping" ultrasonic sensors might work, but seem to be short range
> > and would require some kind of servo to do scanning.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, 2016-02-02 at 18:02 -0600, Dan Bemowski wrote:
> > >
> > > Kent,
> > >
> > >
> > > To some extent it does depend on the capabilities of the thermostat,
> > > but only in that it needs to have heating and cooling capability and
> > > the ability to change them and the set points.  The logic behind it is
> > > what gives any of the thermostatsout there their features.  Putting
> > > your own spin on that logic is what I find cool.  A number of years
> > > ago I was part of a project called Open Source Automation, and one of
> > > the things they were working on was occupancy sensing and doing things
> > > like this based on knowing who was home and what their preferences
> > > were.  The things you are talking about are easy compared to some of
> > > the complexities of occupancy sensing.  I think moving things in that
> > > direction is where things should move with MisterHouse.  Sure its
> > > complex and hard, but there is a GREAT team of people behind the
> > > software and in time it will get there.
> > >
> > >
> > > Dan B
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, 2016-02-02 at 16:48 -0600, kent S wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I'm not sure if this will even rise to the $.02 level, and I know it
> > > > will add to complexity and make your job harder, but why hard code
> > > > heat/cool? based on things like latitude, time of year, and outside
> > > > temperature it should be possible to compute the right mode. The user
> > > > sets 22° and the computer/thermostat takes over. If you add in
> > > > modifiers, like "I like it a bit warmer in the winter" or "on cloudy
> > > > days add 2°" or "in spring we have the windows open, so allow more
> > > > slop", etc, then you would allow the user to set a temp, and maybe some
> > > > preferences and voila!  
> > > >
> > > > This does depend a bit on the capabilities of the thermostat and assumes
> > > > the user has other sensors, but it seems to me to be worth saving room
> > > > for, even if it is an FFA (future feature adapter)
> > > >
> > > > Note: I won't be buying a thermostat with only an internet API, so I
> > > > won't be helpful for this particular model, but I am now thinking about
> > > > how this could work in mh that would allow these features and the
> > > > various "thermostat drivers" could access it.
> > > > On Mon, 2016-02-01 at 23:34 -0600, Dan Bemowski wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Just to throw my 2 cents in here, I would say you could determine it
> > > > > by checking what mode the thermostat is in.  If you base it off the
> > > > > mode and the thermostat is in heat mode, then it would be a heating
> > > > > set point, and vice versa for cooling mode.  Where it might get hairy
> > > > > is in auto mode, but I would think that for auto you could base it on
> > > > > the current temp.  If you are setting to 22 degrees and the current
> > > > > temp is 27 degrees then make it a cooling set point.  Likewise if
> > > > > setting to 22 and the temp is 18, then make it a heating set point.
> > > > >  Outside of that you may have to figure out a way to tell siri that it
> > > > > is specifically a heating or cooling set point.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Dan B.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mon, 2016-02-01 at 18:39 -0700, H Plato wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Further to Garry’s email, I’ve got the last Homebridge category ‘Thermostats’ roughly working. So ‘Siri, set the main thermostat to 22 degrees’ will trigger a MH action.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Right now that action will trigger a subroutine in a common code module. Since I have a venstar and nest, I’ve managed to get those working. Should be straightforward to connect other thermostats.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > However, here’s my question. ‘Set the main thermostat to 22 degrees’ can mean either setting a heating or cooling setpoint. The nest has a ‘target temperature’ that should work, and for the venstars, I check if they are set to heating mode (then use a heat setpoint) or cooling / auto mode (then use a cool setpoint).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The insteon thermostats have heating and cooling setpoint routines.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Anyone have any suggestions or logic that might make sense? I thought maybe if it’s june - sept, then assume a cooling setpoint, however this only works for us northern latitude folks. This could be a config_param setting, but that seams cumbersome. Maybe based on outside temps, but what should the range be?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Any ideas or suggestions?
> > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
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> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
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> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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Re: Setpoints -- heating and cooling?

Rick Bolen(gm)
In reply to this post by kent S
You can leave the mercury tstat as is (set to say 55F degrees as a
failsafe) and wire in relays parallel to the tstat's heat\cool circuits.
Control the relays via 1-wire temp sensors and logic within MH.

One of the things I've been needing to do is to put a wider temperature
"spread" on the activating circuit. Most of the tstats today have a 1F
degree swing, which results in my system short cycling more than I would
prefer.

Rick

On 02/03/2016 04:20 PM, kent S wrote:

> In my case the capabilities of the thermostat is zero (almost). My
> current thermostat is a 1960's round honeywell model with the mercury
> switch. I would like to keep it and build a "smart thermostat" around it
> in software. That is why I was suggesting replicating a lot of what
> current smart models can already do.
>
> I don't think what I want is actually possible, which is to leave the
> 'stat untouched and use a arduino or raspberry pi to read its settings,
> then do magic. That way if the pi or arduino break, relays can close and
> I am back to reliable and mechanical.
>
> Add in that I have a reluctance to distribute my "metadata", whether it
> be HVAC, lighting, or otherwise, and what I want will certainly be more
> complicated than what other people need that are willing to let others
> do some of the work for them. :)
>
> I just noticed the original question asked about time of year, which was
> the big part of my suggestion. my logic would be something like this
> (with minus points for style and consistency).
>
>
>
> if(summer && windows != open) {
>     if(outsidetemp == hot) {
>       cool_aggressively();
>       #this could be alternatively be coolsetting(setpoint -2)}
>     } elsif (cloudy) {
>        coolsetting($setpoint +5);
>     }
>   }
>
> if (winter && daytime && sunny) {
>    open_curtains();
>    if(freeze_your_eyballs_cold) {
>      heat_setting($setpoint +5);
>    } else {
>      heat_setting($setpoint);
>    }
> }
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, 2016-02-02 at 18:02 -0600, Dan Bemowski wrote:
>> Kent,
>>
>>
>> To some extent it does depend on the capabilities of the thermostat,
>> but only in that it needs to have heating and cooling capability and
>> the ability to change them and the set points.  The logic behind it is
>> what gives any of the thermostatsout there their features.  Putting
>> your own spin on that logic is what I find cool.  A number of years
>> ago I was part of a project called Open Source Automation, and one of
>> the things they were working on was occupancy sensing and doing things
>> like this based on knowing who was home and what their preferences
>> were.  The things you are talking about are easy compared to some of
>> the complexities of occupancy sensing.  I think moving things in that
>> direction is where things should move with MisterHouse.  Sure its
>> complex and hard, but there is a GREAT team of people behind the
>> software and in time it will get there.
>>
>>
>> Dan B
>>
>>
>> On Tue, 2016-02-02 at 16:48 -0600, kent S wrote:
>>> I'm not sure if this will even rise to the $.02 level, and I know it
>>> will add to complexity and make your job harder, but why hard code
>>> heat/cool? based on things like latitude, time of year, and outside
>>> temperature it should be possible to compute the right mode. The user
>>> sets 22° and the computer/thermostat takes over. If you add in
>>> modifiers, like "I like it a bit warmer in the winter" or "on cloudy
>>> days add 2°" or "in spring we have the windows open, so allow more
>>> slop", etc, then you would allow the user to set a temp, and maybe some
>>> preferences and voila!
>>>
>>> This does depend a bit on the capabilities of the thermostat and assumes
>>> the user has other sensors, but it seems to me to be worth saving room
>>> for, even if it is an FFA (future feature adapter)
>>>
>>> Note: I won't be buying a thermostat with only an internet API, so I
>>> won't be helpful for this particular model, but I am now thinking about
>>> how this could work in mh that would allow these features and the
>>> various "thermostat drivers" could access it.
>>> On Mon, 2016-02-01 at 23:34 -0600, Dan Bemowski wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Just to throw my 2 cents in here, I would say you could determine it
>>>> by checking what mode the thermostat is in.  If you base it off the
>>>> mode and the thermostat is in heat mode, then it would be a heating
>>>> set point, and vice versa for cooling mode.  Where it might get hairy
>>>> is in auto mode, but I would think that for auto you could base it on
>>>> the current temp.  If you are setting to 22 degrees and the current
>>>> temp is 27 degrees then make it a cooling set point.  Likewise if
>>>> setting to 22 and the temp is 18, then make it a heating set point.
>>>>   Outside of that you may have to figure out a way to tell siri that it
>>>> is specifically a heating or cooling set point.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dan B.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, 2016-02-01 at 18:39 -0700, H Plato wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Further to Garry’s email, I’ve got the last Homebridge category ‘Thermostats’ roughly working. So ‘Siri, set the main thermostat to 22 degrees’ will trigger a MH action.
>>>>>
>>>>> Right now that action will trigger a subroutine in a common code module. Since I have a venstar and nest, I’ve managed to get those working. Should be straightforward to connect other thermostats.
>>>>>
>>>>> However, here’s my question. ‘Set the main thermostat to 22 degrees’ can mean either setting a heating or cooling setpoint. The nest has a ‘target temperature’ that should work, and for the venstars, I check if they are set to heating mode (then use a heat setpoint) or cooling / auto mode (then use a cool setpoint).
>>>>>
>>>>> The insteon thermostats have heating and cooling setpoint routines.
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyone have any suggestions or logic that might make sense? I thought maybe if it’s june - sept, then assume a cooling setpoint, however this only works for us northern latitude folks. This could be a config_param setting, but that seams cumbersome. Maybe based on outside temps, but what should the range be?
>>>>>
>>>>> Any ideas or suggestions?
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> Site24x7 APM Insight: Get Deep Visibility into Application Performance
>>>>> APM + Mobile APM + RUM: Monitor 3 App instances at just $35/Month
>>>>> Monitor end-to-end web transactions and take corrective actions now
>>>>> Troubleshoot faster and improve end-user experience. Signup Now!
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>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>
>
>
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Re: Setpoints -- heating and cooling?

H Plato
In reply to this post by kent S
Thanks for the input. In thinking about this some more, I’m thinking this makes sense:

Say a requested temp is 22 degrees and a stat is set to auto/has both cooling and heating. Using outside and stat temps:

Outside Inside mode
27 25 cooling
23 24 cooling
20 23 cooling
17 23 heating
10 23 heating
5 20 heating

From what I see (or at least the weather we have here), the only time there might be some ambiguity is if the requested setpoint is close the the outside temp. i think if temps are above a certain threshold — maybe 15-18 deg C, it should be cooling. My thinking here is that windows and solar radiation can heat up a house even if the outside temp isn’t that warm (I have lots of windows). it might have sense to have a outside_cooling_min as a config parameter, so that this could be adjusted.


On Feb 3, 2016, at 2:20 PM, kent S <[hidden email]> wrote:

In my case the capabilities of the thermostat is zero (almost). My
current thermostat is a 1960's round honeywell model with the mercury
switch. I would like to keep it and build a "smart thermostat" around it
in software. That is why I was suggesting replicating a lot of what
current smart models can already do. 

I don't think what I want is actually possible, which is to leave the
'stat untouched and use a arduino or raspberry pi to read its settings,
then do magic. That way if the pi or arduino break, relays can close and
I am back to reliable and mechanical. 

Add in that I have a reluctance to distribute my "metadata", whether it
be HVAC, lighting, or otherwise, and what I want will certainly be more
complicated than what other people need that are willing to let others
do some of the work for them. :)

I just noticed the original question asked about time of year, which was
the big part of my suggestion. my logic would be something like this
(with minus points for style and consistency).



if(summer && windows != open) {
  if(outsidetemp == hot) {
    cool_aggressively();
    #this could be alternatively be coolsetting(setpoint -2)}
  } elsif (cloudy) {
     coolsetting($setpoint +5);
  }
}

if (winter && daytime && sunny) {
 open_curtains();
 if(freeze_your_eyballs_cold) {
   heat_setting($setpoint +5);
 } else {
   heat_setting($setpoint);
 }
}




On Tue, 2016-02-02 at 18:02 -0600, Dan Bemowski wrote:
Kent,


To some extent it does depend on the capabilities of the thermostat,
but only in that it needs to have heating and cooling capability and
the ability to change them and the set points.  The logic behind it is
what gives any of the thermostatsout there their features.  Putting
your own spin on that logic is what I find cool.  A number of years
ago I was part of a project called Open Source Automation, and one of
the things they were working on was occupancy sensing and doing things
like this based on knowing who was home and what their preferences
were.  The things you are talking about are easy compared to some of
the complexities of occupancy sensing.  I think moving things in that
direction is where things should move with MisterHouse.  Sure its
complex and hard, but there is a GREAT team of people behind the
software and in time it will get there.


Dan B


On Tue, 2016-02-02 at 16:48 -0600, kent S wrote:
I'm not sure if this will even rise to the $.02 level, and I know it
will add to complexity and make your job harder, but why hard code
heat/cool? based on things like latitude, time of year, and outside
temperature it should be possible to compute the right mode. The user
sets 22° and the computer/thermostat takes over. If you add in
modifiers, like "I like it a bit warmer in the winter" or "on cloudy
days add 2°" or "in spring we have the windows open, so allow more
slop", etc, then you would allow the user to set a temp, and maybe some
preferences and voila!  

This does depend a bit on the capabilities of the thermostat and assumes
the user has other sensors, but it seems to me to be worth saving room
for, even if it is an FFA (future feature adapter)

Note: I won't be buying a thermostat with only an internet API, so I
won't be helpful for this particular model, but I am now thinking about
how this could work in mh that would allow these features and the
various "thermostat drivers" could access it.
On Mon, 2016-02-01 at 23:34 -0600, Dan Bemowski wrote:

Just to throw my 2 cents in here, I would say you could determine it
by checking what mode the thermostat is in.  If you base it off the
mode and the thermostat is in heat mode, then it would be a heating
set point, and vice versa for cooling mode.  Where it might get hairy
is in auto mode, but I would think that for auto you could base it on
the current temp.  If you are setting to 22 degrees and the current
temp is 27 degrees then make it a cooling set point.  Likewise if
setting to 22 and the temp is 18, then make it a heating set point.
Outside of that you may have to figure out a way to tell siri that it
is specifically a heating or cooling set point.


Dan B.


On Mon, 2016-02-01 at 18:39 -0700, H Plato wrote:

Further to Garry’s email, I’ve got the last Homebridge category ‘Thermostats’ roughly working. So ‘Siri, set the main thermostat to 22 degrees’ will trigger a MH action.

Right now that action will trigger a subroutine in a common code module. Since I have a venstar and nest, I’ve managed to get those working. Should be straightforward to connect other thermostats.

However, here’s my question. ‘Set the main thermostat to 22 degrees’ can mean either setting a heating or cooling setpoint. The nest has a ‘target temperature’ that should work, and for the venstars, I check if they are set to heating mode (then use a heat setpoint) or cooling / auto mode (then use a cool setpoint).

The insteon thermostats have heating and cooling setpoint routines.

Anyone have any suggestions or logic that might make sense? I thought maybe if it’s june - sept, then assume a cooling setpoint, however this only works for us northern latitude folks. This could be a config_param setting, but that seams cumbersome. Maybe based on outside temps, but what should the range be?

Any ideas or suggestions?
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Re: Setpoints -- heating and cooling?

dbemowsk
In reply to this post by Rick Bolen(gm)
My RCS thermostat has something called MOT and MRT.  These are the failsafes to prevent short cycling.  Short cycling can be hard on a furnace.  MOT is the Minimum Off Time, or the amount of time that the thermostat should remain off before it can cycle back on again.  Likewise, MRT is the Minimum Run Time, which is the minimum amount of time the furnace or AC should run before it can shut down.  These values are definable, but I think they default to 3 minutes.  This is easy to code into the tstat logic.

Dan B

On Thu, 2016-02-04 at 14:19 -0500, Rick Bolen(gm) wrote:
You can leave the mercury tstat as is (set to say 55F degrees as a 
failsafe) and wire in relays parallel to the tstat's heat\cool circuits. 
Control the relays via 1-wire temp sensors and logic within MH.

One of the things I've been needing to do is to put a wider temperature 
"spread" on the activating circuit. Most of the tstats today have a 1F 
degree swing, which results in my system short cycling more than I would 
prefer.

Rick

On 02/03/2016 04:20 PM, kent S wrote:
In my case the capabilities of the thermostat is zero (almost). My current thermostat is a 1960's round honeywell model with the mercury switch. I would like to keep it and build a "smart thermostat" around it in software. That is why I was suggesting replicating a lot of what current smart models can already do. I don't think what I want is actually possible, which is to leave the 'stat untouched and use a arduino or raspberry pi to read its settings, then do magic. That way if the pi or arduino break, relays can close and I am back to reliable and mechanical. Add in that I have a reluctance to distribute my "metadata", whether it be HVAC, lighting, or otherwise, and what I want will certainly be more complicated than what other people need that are willing to let others do some of the work for them. :) I just noticed the original question asked about time of year, which was the big part of my suggestion. my logic would be something like this (with minus points for style and consistency). if(summer && windows != open) { if(outsidetemp == hot) { cool_aggressively(); #this could be alternatively be coolsetting(setpoint -2)} } elsif (cloudy) { coolsetting($setpoint +5); } } if (winter && daytime && sunny) { open_curtains(); if(freeze_your_eyballs_cold) { heat_setting($setpoint +5); } else { heat_setting($setpoint); } } On Tue, 2016-02-02 at 18:02 -0600, Dan Bemowski wrote:
Kent, To some extent it does depend on the capabilities of the thermostat, but only in that it needs to have heating and cooling capability and the ability to change them and the set points. The logic behind it is what gives any of the thermostatsout there their features. Putting your own spin on that logic is what I find cool. A number of years ago I was part of a project called Open Source Automation, and one of the things they were working on was occupancy sensing and doing things like this based on knowing who was home and what their preferences were. The things you are talking about are easy compared to some of the complexities of occupancy sensing. I think moving things in that direction is where things should move with MisterHouse. Sure its complex and hard, but there is a GREAT team of people behind the software and in time it will get there. Dan B On Tue, 2016-02-02 at 16:48 -0600, kent S wrote:
I'm not sure if this will even rise to the $.02 level, and I know it will add to complexity and make your job harder, but why hard code heat/cool? based on things like latitude, time of year, and outside temperature it should be possible to compute the right mode. The user sets 22° and the computer/thermostat takes over. If you add in modifiers, like "I like it a bit warmer in the winter" or "on cloudy days add 2°" or "in spring we have the windows open, so allow more slop", etc, then you would allow the user to set a temp, and maybe some preferences and voila! This does depend a bit on the capabilities of the thermostat and assumes the user has other sensors, but it seems to me to be worth saving room for, even if it is an FFA (future feature adapter) Note: I won't be buying a thermostat with only an internet API, so I won't be helpful for this particular model, but I am now thinking about how this could work in mh that would allow these features and the various "thermostat drivers" could access it. On Mon, 2016-02-01 at 23:34 -0600, Dan Bemowski wrote:
Just to throw my 2 cents in here, I would say you could determine it by checking what mode the thermostat is in. If you base it off the mode and the thermostat is in heat mode, then it would be a heating set point, and vice versa for cooling mode. Where it might get hairy is in auto mode, but I would think that for auto you could base it on the current temp. If you are setting to 22 degrees and the current temp is 27 degrees then make it a cooling set point. Likewise if setting to 22 and the temp is 18, then make it a heating set point. Outside of that you may have to figure out a way to tell siri that it is specifically a heating or cooling set point. Dan B. On Mon, 2016-02-01 at 18:39 -0700, H Plato wrote:
Further to Garry’s email, I’ve got the last Homebridge category ‘Thermostats’ roughly working. So ‘Siri, set the main thermostat to 22 degrees’ will trigger a MH action. Right now that action will trigger a subroutine in a common code module. Since I have a venstar and nest, I’ve managed to get those working. Should be straightforward to connect other thermostats. However, here’s my question. ‘Set the main thermostat to 22 degrees’ can mean either setting a heating or cooling setpoint. The nest has a ‘target temperature’ that should work, and for the venstars, I check if they are set to heating mode (then use a heat setpoint) or cooling / auto mode (then use a cool setpoint). The insteon thermostats have heating and cooling setpoint routines. Anyone have any suggestions or logic that might make sense? I thought maybe if it’s june - sept, then assume a cooling setpoint, however this only works for us northern latitude folks. This could be a config_param setting, but that seams cumbersome. Maybe based on outside temps, but what should the range be? Any ideas or suggestions? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Site24x7 APM Insight: Get Deep Visibility into Application Performance APM + Mobile APM + RUM: Monitor 3 App instances at just $35/Month Monitor end-to-end web transactions and take corrective actions now Troubleshoot faster and improve end-user experience. Signup Now! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=267308311&iu=/4140 ________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe from this list, go to: https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/misterhouse-users
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Re: Setpoints -- heating and cooling?

Jim Serack-2

A couple more cents to add to the discussion – recently I’ve been “lucky” enough to have upgraded both my furnace and AC and have some insights to share.

 

1)      Multistage and variable – the high end and even midrange units are going to multistage heating and cooling – heat 1, heat 2, … cool 1, cool 2 where the thermostat senses that the heating or cooling is not occurring or occurring fast enough and will switch from heat 1 to heat 2 (full)  - so if you are planning a Mr.House Module it should consider at least dual stage. On top of that my high end furnace has variable values and blower speeds so it self-adjusts over days the percentage power (from about 15% to 60% if I remember) that heat 1 gives by trying to avoid the thermostat for calling for heat 2, or shutting down heat 1 quickly. As a result in the shoulder seasons the house is lovely with a very stable temperature as the furnace has adjusted to put out heat at the rate it is being lost – no blast of heat and then a long “cooling” time and another blast of heat. Turns out this is very energy efficient too. (Note that is different than what some thermostats do to determining variable preheat times). So four wires … Heat 1, Heat 2, Cool 1, Cool 2

2)      Humidity control – humidify in the winter, use the AC to dehumidify in the summer. Another two wires – humidify should be obvious – dehumidify with a variable AC and variable speed blower is interesting – it will run the AC on a low speed and the blower on just high enough speed to keep the evaporate from freezing thereby accelerating the moisture removal. The net result is I can set the Thermostat to 77F (25C) and the humidity to 50% and it is really comfortable – and occasionally you see the thermostat at 75 and the AC running and you go WHAT? And then realize that its removing moisture. Again very energy efficient and easier on a person making a transition from 90F outside to inside or vise versa.

3)      RS-485 … instead of all those wires to get confused and in the wrong place or logic (my furnace used negative logic on the dehumidify to grandfather old humidistats) the newer furnaces use a serial daisy chain and a protocol – mostly equivalent to “activate heat 1” but the protocol provides for other fine tuning as well (such as the blower speeds).

 

On top of that I have a HRV (Heat Recovery Ventilator) that’s main purpose is to exchange fresh air – but by integrating it into the system I can get secondary value – so for example we have just gone to bed – system does thermostat setback on our behavior (turned off certain lights and no hallway motion) not time of night but then depending on indoor and outdoor temp and humidity will run the HRV in boost mode to drop the air temp quickly (in winter) to sleeping temperature with some lovely fresh air. Or in the summer – some mornings outside air is both cooler than the 77F setpoint and dryer so run the HRV to get the air quality I want without using the AC compressor.

 

I was able to still use physical wiring to have my HAI Omnistat control all of the above – and control the Omnistat with messaging from a HAI Omnipro Alarm/Automation System – which Mr.House can make “suggestions” to set points based on the weather forecast. (In case anyone asks – I just use a series of X10 signals to communicate between macros – I have not implemented protocol level communication between the two yet … but that is on the wish list)

 

From: Dan Bemowski [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Thursday, February 4, 2016 11:30 PM
To: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [mh] Setpoints -- heating and cooling?

 

My RCS thermostat has something called MOT and MRT.  These are the failsafes to prevent short cycling.  Short cycling can be hard on a furnace.  MOT is the Minimum Off Time, or the amount of time that the thermostat should remain off before it can cycle back on again.  Likewise, MRT is the Minimum Run Time, which is the minimum amount of time the furnace or AC should run before it can shut down.  These values are definable, but I think they default to 3 minutes.  This is easy to code into the tstat logic.

 

Dan B

 

On Thu, 2016-02-04 at 14:19 -0500, Rick Bolen(gm) wrote:

You can leave the mercury tstat as is (set to say 55F degrees as a 
failsafe) and wire in relays parallel to the tstat's heat\cool circuits. 
Control the relays via 1-wire temp sensors and logic within MH.
 
One of the things I've been needing to do is to put a wider temperature 
"spread" on the activating circuit. Most of the tstats today have a 1F 
degree swing, which results in my system short cycling more than I would 
prefer.
 
Rick
 
On 02/03/2016 04:20 PM, kent S wrote:
 
In my case the capabilities of the thermostat is zero (almost). My
current thermostat is a 1960's round honeywell model with the mercury
switch. I would like to keep it and build a "smart thermostat" around it
in software. That is why I was suggesting replicating a lot of what
current smart models can already do.
 
I don't think what I want is actually possible, which is to leave the
'stat untouched and use a arduino or raspberry pi to read its settings,
then do magic. That way if the pi or arduino break, relays can close and
I am back to reliable and mechanical.
 
Add in that I have a reluctance to distribute my "metadata", whether it
be HVAC, lighting, or otherwise, and what I want will certainly be more
complicated than what other people need that are willing to let others
do some of the work for them. :)
 
I just noticed the original question asked about time of year, which was
the big part of my suggestion. my logic would be something like this
(with minus points for style and consistency).
 
 
 
if(summer && windows != open) {
    if(outsidetemp == hot) {
      cool_aggressively();
      #this could be alternatively be coolsetting(setpoint -2)}
    } elsif (cloudy) {
       coolsetting($setpoint +5);
    }
  }
 
if (winter && daytime && sunny) {
   open_curtains();
   if(freeze_your_eyballs_cold) {
     heat_setting($setpoint +5);
   } else {
     heat_setting($setpoint);
   }
}
 
 
 
 
On Tue, 2016-02-02 at 18:02 -0600, Dan Bemowski wrote:
 
Kent,
 
 
To some extent it does depend on the capabilities of the thermostat,
but only in that it needs to have heating and cooling capability and
the ability to change them and the set points.  The logic behind it is
what gives any of the thermostatsout there their features.  Putting
your own spin on that logic is what I find cool.  A number of years
ago I was part of a project called Open Source Automation, and one of
the things they were working on was occupancy sensing and doing things
like this based on knowing who was home and what their preferences
were.  The things you are talking about are easy compared to some of
the complexities of occupancy sensing.  I think moving things in that
direction is where things should move with MisterHouse.  Sure its
complex and hard, but there is a GREAT team of people behind the
software and in time it will get there.
 
 
Dan B
 
 
On Tue, 2016-02-02 at 16:48 -0600, kent S wrote:
 
I'm not sure if this will even rise to the $.02 level, and I know it
will add to complexity and make your job harder, but why hard code
heat/cool? based on things like latitude, time of year, and outside
temperature it should be possible to compute the right mode. The user
sets 22° and the computer/thermostat takes over. If you add in
modifiers, like "I like it a bit warmer in the winter" or "on cloudy
days add 2°" or "in spring we have the windows open, so allow more
slop", etc, then you would allow the user to set a temp, and maybe some
preferences and voila!
 
This does depend a bit on the capabilities of the thermostat and assumes
the user has other sensors, but it seems to me to be worth saving room
for, even if it is an FFA (future feature adapter)
 
Note: I won't be buying a thermostat with only an internet API, so I
won't be helpful for this particular model, but I am now thinking about
how this could work in mh that would allow these features and the
various "thermostat drivers" could access it.
On Mon, 2016-02-01 at 23:34 -0600, Dan Bemowski wrote:
 
 
Just to throw my 2 cents in here, I would say you could determine it
by checking what mode the thermostat is in.  If you base it off the
mode and the thermostat is in heat mode, then it would be a heating
set point, and vice versa for cooling mode.  Where it might get hairy
is in auto mode, but I would think that for auto you could base it on
the current temp.  If you are setting to 22 degrees and the current
temp is 27 degrees then make it a cooling set point.  Likewise if
setting to 22 and the temp is 18, then make it a heating set point.
  Outside of that you may have to figure out a way to tell siri that it
is specifically a heating or cooling set point.
 
 
Dan B.
 
 
On Mon, 2016-02-01 at 18:39 -0700, H Plato wrote:
 
 
Further to Garry’s email, I’ve got the last Homebridge category ‘Thermostats’ roughly working. So ‘Siri, set the main thermostat to 22 degrees’ will trigger a MH action.
 
Right now that action will trigger a subroutine in a common code module. Since I have a venstar and nest, I’ve managed to get those working. Should be straightforward to connect other thermostats.
 
However, here’s my question. ‘Set the main thermostat to 22 degrees’ can mean either setting a heating or cooling setpoint. The nest has a ‘target temperature’ that should work, and for the venstars, I check if they are set to heating mode (then use a heat setpoint) or cooling / auto mode (then use a cool setpoint).
 
The insteon thermostats have heating and cooling setpoint routines.
 
Anyone have any suggestions or logic that might make sense? I thought maybe if it’s june - sept, then assume a cooling setpoint, however this only works for us northern latitude folks. This could be a config_param setting, but that seams cumbersome. Maybe based on outside temps, but what should the range be?
 
Any ideas or suggestions?
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Re: Occupancy Sensing

Dustin Robinson
In reply to this post by kent S
I use mostly PIR sensors for lighting control.  I had issues in the family room while while watching TV and got around those by monitoring the HTPC.  That way if the tv is on the lights won't turn off even if the timers have expired.  You could try something as simple as a pressure sensor in your reading chair or if you always have your wallet/phone perhaps rfid or nfc sensors.  

On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 12:07 PM, kent S <[hidden email]> wrote:
if the car is fairly modern, tire pressue sensors would probably work.
they have unique serial numbers. some rtl_sdr software and a $20 dongle
is all it would take.
https://github.com/jboone/tpms

You could also use this to tell when the neighbors are home or not, so
you can turn up the stereo to deafening levels!



On Wed, 2016-02-03 at 23:36 -0600, Dan Bemowski wrote:
> When I was working with the Open Source Autometion (OSA) team, the
> software was completely object oriented.  For an automation setup you
> would define "person" objects.  There were different ways to update a
> "person" object, such as monitoring cell phones to see whose cell
> phone was at home on top of motion sensing and things.  I had also had
> some discussion back in those days on ways to do vehicle sensing to
> know whose vehicle was home, increasing the reliability of a "person"
> object.  Once you knew who was home, you could use things like
> thermostat preferences tied to that "person" object or objects.  If
> you had ways to monitor where each person was in the house and you had
> zone controlled heating and cooling, you could control different areas
> of the house based on each users temp settings.  This starts getting
> into a pretty complex system though, but could possibly be done to
> some extents.
>
>
> Dan B
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, 2016-02-03 at 15:43 -0600, kent S wrote:
> > Since Dan brought it up is there any new techniques in the area of
> > occupancy sensing?
> >
> > The most common idea I have seen is IR motion sensing, which works
> > pretty well unless you like to read.
> >
> > I haven't seen as much ont this but a video camera the software called
> > motion under linux and Mac, and I'm sure similar under windows. or maybe
> > opencv image/face recognition
> >
> > I like the idea of a combination, essentially motion running against a
> > FLIR image. using maybe something like an omron D6T-44L-06 mems thermal
> > sensor (essentially a low res IR camera)
> >
> > I've heard of electric field sensors, which I think require a grid of
> > electrified wires under the carpet. sort of a long range capacitive
> > touchscreen without the screen.
> >
> > those "ping" ultrasonic sensors might work, but seem to be short range
> > and would require some kind of servo to do scanning.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, 2016-02-02 at 18:02 -0600, Dan Bemowski wrote:
> > >
> > > Kent,
> > >
> > >
> > > To some extent it does depend on the capabilities of the thermostat,
> > > but only in that it needs to have heating and cooling capability and
> > > the ability to change them and the set points.  The logic behind it is
> > > what gives any of the thermostatsout there their features.  Putting
> > > your own spin on that logic is what I find cool.  A number of years
> > > ago I was part of a project called Open Source Automation, and one of
> > > the things they were working on was occupancy sensing and doing things
> > > like this based on knowing who was home and what their preferences
> > > were.  The things you are talking about are easy compared to some of
> > > the complexities of occupancy sensing.  I think moving things in that
> > > direction is where things should move with MisterHouse.  Sure its
> > > complex and hard, but there is a GREAT team of people behind the
> > > software and in time it will get there.
> > >
> > >
> > > Dan B
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, 2016-02-02 at 16:48 -0600, kent S wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I'm not sure if this will even rise to the $.02 level, and I know it
> > > > will add to complexity and make your job harder, but why hard code
> > > > heat/cool? based on things like latitude, time of year, and outside
> > > > temperature it should be possible to compute the right mode. The user
> > > > sets 22° and the computer/thermostat takes over. If you add in
> > > > modifiers, like "I like it a bit warmer in the winter" or "on cloudy
> > > > days add 2°" or "in spring we have the windows open, so allow more
> > > > slop", etc, then you would allow the user to set a temp, and maybe some
> > > > preferences and voila!
> > > >
> > > > This does depend a bit on the capabilities of the thermostat and assumes
> > > > the user has other sensors, but it seems to me to be worth saving room
> > > > for, even if it is an FFA (future feature adapter)
> > > >
> > > > Note: I won't be buying a thermostat with only an internet API, so I
> > > > won't be helpful for this particular model, but I am now thinking about
> > > > how this could work in mh that would allow these features and the
> > > > various "thermostat drivers" could access it.
> > > > On Mon, 2016-02-01 at 23:34 -0600, Dan Bemowski wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Just to throw my 2 cents in here, I would say you could determine it
> > > > > by checking what mode the thermostat is in.  If you base it off the
> > > > > mode and the thermostat is in heat mode, then it would be a heating
> > > > > set point, and vice versa for cooling mode.  Where it might get hairy
> > > > > is in auto mode, but I would think that for auto you could base it on
> > > > > the current temp.  If you are setting to 22 degrees and the current
> > > > > temp is 27 degrees then make it a cooling set point.  Likewise if
> > > > > setting to 22 and the temp is 18, then make it a heating set point.
> > > > >  Outside of that you may have to figure out a way to tell siri that it
> > > > > is specifically a heating or cooling set point.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Dan B.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mon, 2016-02-01 at 18:39 -0700, H Plato wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Further to Garry’s email, I’ve got the last Homebridge category ‘Thermostats’ roughly working. So ‘Siri, set the main thermostat to 22 degrees’ will trigger a MH action.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Right now that action will trigger a subroutine in a common code module. Since I have a venstar and nest, I’ve managed to get those working. Should be straightforward to connect other thermostats.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > However, here’s my question. ‘Set the main thermostat to 22 degrees’ can mean either setting a heating or cooling setpoint. The nest has a ‘target temperature’ that should work, and for the venstars, I check if they are set to heating mode (then use a heat setpoint) or cooling / auto mode (then use a cool setpoint).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The insteon thermostats have heating and cooling setpoint routines.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Anyone have any suggestions or logic that might make sense? I thought maybe if it’s june - sept, then assume a cooling setpoint, however this only works for us northern latitude folks. This could be a config_param setting, but that seams cumbersome. Maybe based on outside temps, but what should the range be?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Any ideas or suggestions?
> > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > > > > To unsubscribe from this list, go to: https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/misterhouse-users
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > Site24x7 APM Insight: Get Deep Visibility into Application Performance
> > > > APM + Mobile APM + RUM: Monitor 3 App instances at just $35/Month
> > > > Monitor end-to-end web transactions and take corrective actions now
> > > > Troubleshoot faster and improve end-user experience. Signup Now!
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> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Site24x7 APM Insight: Get Deep Visibility into Application Performance
> > APM + Mobile APM + RUM: Monitor 3 App instances at just $35/Month
> > Monitor end-to-end web transactions and take corrective actions now
> > Troubleshoot faster and improve end-user experience. Signup Now!
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> >



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Re: Occupancy Sensing

dbemowsk
There was a post years ago on the X10 forums about a guy who was using X10 DS10A wireless sensors connected to his Lazy Boy.  When he would sit in his chair, he would get a voice greeting and the TV would automatically turn on for him.

Dan

On Tue, 2016-02-09 at 16:20 -0500, Dustin Robinson wrote:
I use mostly PIR sensors for lighting control.  I had issues in the family room while while watching TV and got around those by monitoring the HTPC.  That way if the tv is on the lights won't turn off even if the timers have expired.  You could try something as simple as a pressure sensor in your reading chair or if you always have your wallet/phone perhaps rfid or nfc sensors.  

On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 12:07 PM, kent S <[hidden email]> wrote:
if the car is fairly modern, tire pressue sensors would probably work.
they have unique serial numbers. some rtl_sdr software and a $20 dongle
is all it would take.
https://github.com/jboone/tpms

You could also use this to tell when the neighbors are home or not, so
you can turn up the stereo to deafening levels!



On Wed, 2016-02-03 at 23:36 -0600, Dan Bemowski wrote:
> When I was working with the Open Source Autometion (OSA) team, the
> software was completely object oriented.  For an automation setup you
> would define "person" objects.  There were different ways to update a
> "person" object, such as monitoring cell phones to see whose cell
> phone was at home on top of motion sensing and things.  I had also had
> some discussion back in those days on ways to do vehicle sensing to
> know whose vehicle was home, increasing the reliability of a "person"
> object.  Once you knew who was home, you could use things like
> thermostat preferences tied to that "person" object or objects.  If
> you had ways to monitor where each person was in the house and you had
> zone controlled heating and cooling, you could control different areas
> of the house based on each users temp settings.  This starts getting
> into a pretty complex system though, but could possibly be done to
> some extents.
>
>
> Dan B
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, 2016-02-03 at 15:43 -0600, kent S wrote:
> > Since Dan brought it up is there any new techniques in the area of
> > occupancy sensing?
> >
> > The most common idea I have seen is IR motion sensing, which works
> > pretty well unless you like to read.
> >
> > I haven't seen as much ont this but a video camera the software called
> > motion under linux and Mac, and I'm sure similar under windows. or maybe
> > opencv image/face recognition
> >
> > I like the idea of a combination, essentially motion running against a
> > FLIR image. using maybe something like an omron D6T-44L-06 mems thermal
> > sensor (essentially a low res IR camera)
> >
> > I've heard of electric field sensors, which I think require a grid of
> > electrified wires under the carpet. sort of a long range capacitive
> > touchscreen without the screen.
> >
> > those "ping" ultrasonic sensors might work, but seem to be short range
> > and would require some kind of servo to do scanning.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, 2016-02-02 at 18:02 -0600, Dan Bemowski wrote:
> > >
> > > Kent,
> > >
> > >
> > > To some extent it does depend on the capabilities of the thermostat,
> > > but only in that it needs to have heating and cooling capability and
> > > the ability to change them and the set points.  The logic behind it is
> > > what gives any of the thermostatsout there their features.  Putting
> > > your own spin on that logic is what I find cool.  A number of years
> > > ago I was part of a project called Open Source Automation, and one of
> > > the things they were working on was occupancy sensing and doing things
> > > like this based on knowing who was home and what their preferences
> > > were.  The things you are talking about are easy compared to some of
> > > the complexities of occupancy sensing.  I think moving things in that
> > > direction is where things should move with MisterHouse.  Sure its
> > > complex and hard, but there is a GREAT team of people behind the
> > > software and in time it will get there.
> > >
> > >
> > > Dan B
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, 2016-02-02 at 16:48 -0600, kent S wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I'm not sure if this will even rise to the $.02 level, and I know it
> > > > will add to complexity and make your job harder, but why hard code
> > > > heat/cool? based on things like latitude, time of year, and outside
> > > > temperature it should be possible to compute the right mode. The user
> > > > sets 22° and the computer/thermostat takes over. If you add in
> > > > modifiers, like "I like it a bit warmer in the winter" or "on cloudy
> > > > days add 2°" or "in spring we have the windows open, so allow more
> > > > slop", etc, then you would allow the user to set a temp, and maybe some
> > > > preferences and voila!
> > > >
> > > > This does depend a bit on the capabilities of the thermostat and assumes
> > > > the user has other sensors, but it seems to me to be worth saving room
> > > > for, even if it is an FFA (future feature adapter)
> > > >
> > > > Note: I won't be buying a thermostat with only an internet API, so I
> > > > won't be helpful for this particular model, but I am now thinking about
> > > > how this could work in mh that would allow these features and the
> > > > various "thermostat drivers" could access it.
> > > > On Mon, 2016-02-01 at 23:34 -0600, Dan Bemowski wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Just to throw my 2 cents in here, I would say you could determine it
> > > > > by checking what mode the thermostat is in.  If you base it off the
> > > > > mode and the thermostat is in heat mode, then it would be a heating
> > > > > set point, and vice versa for cooling mode.  Where it might get hairy
> > > > > is in auto mode, but I would think that for auto you could base it on
> > > > > the current temp.  If you are setting to 22 degrees and the current
> > > > > temp is 27 degrees then make it a cooling set point.  Likewise if
> > > > > setting to 22 and the temp is 18, then make it a heating set point.
> > > > >  Outside of that you may have to figure out a way to tell siri that it
> > > > > is specifically a heating or cooling set point.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Dan B.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mon, 2016-02-01 at 18:39 -0700, H Plato wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Further to Garry’s email, I’ve got the last Homebridge category ‘Thermostats’ roughly working. So ‘Siri, set the main thermostat to 22 degrees’ will trigger a MH action.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Right now that action will trigger a subroutine in a common code module. Since I have a venstar and nest, I’ve managed to get those working. Should be straightforward to connect other thermostats.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > However, here’s my question. ‘Set the main thermostat to 22 degrees’ can mean either setting a heating or cooling setpoint. The nest has a ‘target temperature’ that should work, and for the venstars, I check if they are set to heating mode (then use a heat setpoint) or cooling / auto mode (then use a cool setpoint).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The insteon thermostats have heating and cooling setpoint routines.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Anyone have any suggestions or logic that might make sense? I thought maybe if it’s june - sept, then assume a cooling setpoint, however this only works for us northern latitude folks. This could be a config_param setting, but that seams cumbersome. Maybe based on outside temps, but what should the range be?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Any ideas or suggestions?
> > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > Site24x7 APM Insight: Get Deep Visibility into Application Performance
> > > > > > APM + Mobile APM + RUM: Monitor 3 App instances at just $35/Month
> > > > > > Monitor end-to-end web transactions and take corrective actions now
> > > > > > Troubleshoot faster and improve end-user experience. Signup Now!
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> > > > > > ________________________________________________________
> > > > > > To unsubscribe from this list, go to: https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/misterhouse-users
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > > > > APM + Mobile APM + RUM: Monitor 3 App instances at just $35/Month
> > > > > Monitor end-to-end web transactions and take corrective actions now
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> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > Site24x7 APM Insight: Get Deep Visibility into Application Performance
> > > > APM + Mobile APM + RUM: Monitor 3 App instances at just $35/Month
> > > > Monitor end-to-end web transactions and take corrective actions now
> > > > Troubleshoot faster and improve end-user experience. Signup Now!
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> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >



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Re: Occupancy Sensing

Brian Rudy
Over the years I have used a couple different methods for occupancy detection with varying levels of success. I don't see a one size fits all solution that would work for everyone, but take from this what you will.

From 2000-2008 I used X10 motion sensors for room-level occupancy detection. I had the motion sensors placed in all rooms inside the house, as well as outside in view of both of the two entrances. This worked fairly well as long as there was a single occupant, but not so well when there were two or more occupants. I had to place the house in "party mode" so the lights didn't shut off unexpectedly when we were occupying different rooms in the house. The system operated on the assumption that the room to most recently see motion was occupied, and that any other rooms were not. Timers were set (or reset) upon detection of motion, and if a timer expired while a room was assumed to be unoccupied, the corresponding light was turned off. You can see an older version of the code that I used here: https://github.com/hollie/misterhouse/blob/stable/code/public/monitor_occupancy_brian.pl

We moved to an apartment in 2008 and from 2008-2014 I used xAP-bluetooth (to detect the presence of my wife' or my smartphone) to detect house-level occupancy. This was fairly error prone, and often had issues where a phone would go mute and stop responding for a while. As a result, MH was unable to see the corresponding phone, and assumed that occupant had left for a few minutes, and then returned.

We moved to a house again in 2014 and started using the geofencing features of the Tasker/IFTTT apps for Android/iOS to detect house-level occupancy. Budget permitting, I plan to add more lighting control which would benefit from room-level occupancy detection. Now that we have a larger family and more guests, this is a tricky proposition.

lookign to the future, I have experimented with using IP security cameras and OpenCV to detect, identify and track faces in a video stream. The intent was to leverage security cameras from the house to identify and track the house occupants for 2D occupancy detection. This requires a sufficient number of cameras to keep the majority of the interior of the house in view, and sufficient processing power on the system running the OpenCV code to be usable. My PoC code worked reasonably well, can handle multiple IP camera feeds, and takes advantage of OpenCL-enabled GPUs, but still needs some work to be usable. I'll probably get back to working on it once we install more cameras, but it may be a while. Feel free to play with the PoC code here: https://github.com/rudybrian/tuFace

I'm also keeping an eye on BLE (Bluetooth Low Energy) beacons and corresponding Android/iOS support for the "Physical Web" as a possible alternative for room-level occupancy detection. This has promise, but the primary use cases I have seen require user interaction/confirmation so wouldn't be suitable for automated occupancy detection as-is.


Cheers!
-Brian


On 2/9/16 16:15, Dan Bemowski wrote:
There was a post years ago on the X10 forums about a guy who was using X10 DS10A wireless sensors connected to his Lazy Boy.  When he would sit in his chair, he would get a voice greeting and the TV would automatically turn on for him.

Dan

On Tue, 2016-02-09 at 16:20 -0500, Dustin Robinson wrote:
I use mostly PIR sensors for lighting control.  I had issues in the family room while while watching TV and got around those by monitoring the HTPC.  That way if the tv is on the lights won't turn off even if the timers have expired.  You could try something as simple as a pressure sensor in your reading chair or if you always have your wallet/phone perhaps rfid or nfc sensors.  

On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 12:07 PM, kent S <[hidden email]> wrote:
if the car is fairly modern, tire pressue sensors would probably work.
they have unique serial numbers. some rtl_sdr software and a $20 dongle
is all it would take.
https://github.com/jboone/tpms

You could also use this to tell when the neighbors are home or not, so
you can turn up the stereo to deafening levels!



On Wed, 2016-02-03 at 23:36 -0600, Dan Bemowski wrote:
> When I was working with the Open Source Autometion (OSA) team, the
> software was completely object oriented.  For an automation setup you
> would define "person" objects.  There were different ways to update a
> "person" object, such as monitoring cell phones to see whose cell
> phone was at home on top of motion sensing and things.  I had also had
> some discussion back in those days on ways to do vehicle sensing to
> know whose vehicle was home, increasing the reliability of a "person"
> object.  Once you knew who was home, you could use things like
> thermostat preferences tied to that "person" object or objects.  If
> you had ways to monitor where each person was in the house and you had
> zone controlled heating and cooling, you could control different areas
> of the house based on each users temp settings.  This starts getting
> into a pretty complex system though, but could possibly be done to
> some extents.
>
>
> Dan B
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, 2016-02-03 at 15:43 -0600, kent S wrote:
> > Since Dan brought it up is there any new techniques in the area of
> > occupancy sensing?
> >
> > The most common idea I have seen is IR motion sensing, which works
> > pretty well unless you like to read.
> >
> > I haven't seen as much ont this but a video camera the software called
> > motion under linux and Mac, and I'm sure similar under windows. or maybe
> > opencv image/face recognition
> >
> > I like the idea of a combination, essentially motion running against a
> > FLIR image. using maybe something like an omron D6T-44L-06 mems thermal
> > sensor (essentially a low res IR camera)
> >
> > I've heard of electric field sensors, which I think require a grid of
> > electrified wires under the carpet. sort of a long range capacitive
> > touchscreen without the screen.
> >
> > those "ping" ultrasonic sensors might work, but seem to be short range
> > and would require some kind of servo to do scanning.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, 2016-02-02 at 18:02 -0600, Dan Bemowski wrote:
> > >
> > > Kent,
> > >
> > >
> > > To some extent it does depend on the capabilities of the thermostat,
> > > but only in that it needs to have heating and cooling capability and
> > > the ability to change them and the set points.  The logic behind it is
> > > what gives any of the thermostatsout there their features.  Putting
> > > your own spin on that logic is what I find cool.  A number of years
> > > ago I was part of a project called Open Source Automation, and one of
> > > the things they were working on was occupancy sensing and doing things
> > > like this based on knowing who was home and what their preferences
> > > were.  The things you are talking about are easy compared to some of
> > > the complexities of occupancy sensing.  I think moving things in that
> > > direction is where things should move with MisterHouse.  Sure its
> > > complex and hard, but there is a GREAT team of people behind the
> > > software and in time it will get there.
> > >
> > >
> > > Dan B
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, 2016-02-02 at 16:48 -0600, kent S wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I'm not sure if this will even rise to the $.02 level, and I know it
> > > > will add to complexity and make your job harder, but why hard code
> > > > heat/cool? based on things like latitude, time of year, and outside
> > > > temperature it should be possible to compute the right mode. The user
> > > > sets 22° and the computer/thermostat takes over. If you add in
> > > > modifiers, like "I like it a bit warmer in the winter" or "on cloudy
> > > > days add 2°" or "in spring we have the windows open, so allow more
> > > > slop", etc, then you would allow the user to set a temp, and maybe some
> > > > preferences and voila!
> > > >
> > > > This does depend a bit on the capabilities of the thermostat and assumes
> > > > the user has other sensors, but it seems to me to be worth saving room
> > > > for, even if it is an FFA (future feature adapter)
> > > >
> > > > Note: I won't be buying a thermostat with only an internet API, so I
> > > > won't be helpful for this particular model, but I am now thinking about
> > > > how this could work in mh that would allow these features and the
> > > > various "thermostat drivers" could access it.
> > > > On Mon, 2016-02-01 at 23:34 -0600, Dan Bemowski wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Just to throw my 2 cents in here, I would say you could determine it
> > > > > by checking what mode the thermostat is in.  If you base it off the
> > > > > mode and the thermostat is in heat mode, then it would be a heating
> > > > > set point, and vice versa for cooling mode.  Where it might get hairy
> > > > > is in auto mode, but I would think that for auto you could base it on
> > > > > the current temp.  If you are setting to 22 degrees and the current
> > > > > temp is 27 degrees then make it a cooling set point.  Likewise if
> > > > > setting to 22 and the temp is 18, then make it a heating set point.
> > > > >  Outside of that you may have to figure out a way to tell siri that it
> > > > > is specifically a heating or cooling set point.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Dan B.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mon, 2016-02-01 at 18:39 -0700, H Plato wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Further to Garry’s email, I’ve got the last Homebridge category ‘Thermostats’ roughly working. So ‘Siri, set the main thermostat to 22 degrees’ will trigger a MH action.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Right now that action will trigger a subroutine in a common code module. Since I have a venstar and nest, I’ve managed to get those working. Should be straightforward to connect other thermostats.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > However, here’s my question. ‘Set the main thermostat to 22 degrees’ can mean either setting a heating or cooling setpoint. The nest has a ‘target temperature’ that should work, and for the venstars, I check if they are set to heating mode (then use a heat setpoint) or cooling / auto mode (then use a cool setpoint).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The insteon thermostats have heating and cooling setpoint routines.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Anyone have any suggestions or logic that might make sense? I thought maybe if it’s june - sept, then assume a cooling setpoint, however this only works for us northern latitude folks. This could be a config_param setting, but that seams cumbersome. Maybe based on outside temps, but what should the range be?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Any ideas or suggestions?
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> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
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> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
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> >
> >
> >
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Re: Occupancy Sensing

dbemowsk
My most recent endeavor that I am working on is a car PC made with a Raspberry pi.  I saw a youtube video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRb0gY0AAH0) with a promising looking project that uses KODI to create the interface for the computer.  My current hurdle in this that I am trying to overcome is that the OS that is used in the build shown in the video is Raspbian Wheezy.  It looks like he is using an HDMI LCD touch screen.  I am trying mine with one of the new 7" touch screens made for the Pi.  The problem is that they say to get the touch screen to work you have to use the most recent build of Rasbian which is Jesse.  I am having issues getting KODI to work correctly with this version.  I will have more time to play with it after Tuesday.

Once I get that running, I think I will look at some tweaks to it to for car occupancy sensing, and feeding information about my car to MH.  I will try to post some progress reports after I get into it more.

Dan B.

On Thu, 2016-02-25 at 12:48 -0800, Brian Rudy wrote:
Over the years I have used a couple different methods for occupancy detection with varying levels of success. I don't see a one size fits all solution that would work for everyone, but take from this what you will.

From 2000-2008 I used X10 motion sensors for room-level occupancy detection. I had the motion sensors placed in all rooms inside the house, as well as outside in view of both of the two entrances. This worked fairly well as long as there was a single occupant, but not so well when there were two or more occupants. I had to place the house in "party mode" so the lights didn't shut off unexpectedly when we were occupying different rooms in the house. The system operated on the assumption that the room to most recently see motion was occupied, and that any other rooms were not. Timers were set (or reset) upon detection of motion, and if a timer expired while a room was assumed to be unoccupied, the corresponding light was turned off. You can see an older version of the code that I used here: https://github.com/hollie/misterhouse/blob/stable/code/public/monitor_occupancy_brian.pl

We moved to an apartment in 2008 and from 2008-2014 I used xAP-bluetooth (to detect the presence of my wife' or my smartphone) to detect house-level occupancy. This was fairly error prone, and often had issues where a phone would go mute and stop responding for a while. As a result, MH was unable to see the corresponding phone, and assumed that occupant had left for a few minutes, and then returned.

We moved to a house again in 2014 and started using the geofencing features of the Tasker/IFTTT apps for Android/iOS to detect house-level occupancy. Budget permitting, I plan to add more lighting control which would benefit from room-level occupancy detection. Now that we have a larger family and more guests, this is a tricky proposition.

lookign to the future, I have experimented with using IP security cameras and OpenCV to detect, identify and track faces in a video stream. The intent was to leverage security cameras from the house to identify and track the house occupants for 2D occupancy detection. This requires a sufficient number of cameras to keep the majority of the interior of the house in view, and sufficient processing power on the system running the OpenCV code to be usable. My PoC code worked reasonably well, can handle multiple IP camera feeds, and takes advantage of OpenCL-enabled GPUs, but still needs some work to be usable. I'll probably get back to working on it once we install more cameras, but it may be a while. Feel free to play with the PoC code here: https://github.com/rudybrian/tuFace

I'm also keeping an eye on BLE (Bluetooth Low Energy) beacons and corresponding Android/iOS support for the "Physical Web" as a possible alternative for room-level occupancy detection. This has promise, but the primary use cases I have seen require user interaction/confirmation so wouldn't be suitable for automated occupancy detection as-is.


Cheers!
-Brian


On 2/9/16 16:15, Dan Bemowski wrote:
There was a post years ago on the X10 forums about a guy who was using X10 DS10A wireless sensors connected to his Lazy Boy.  When he would sit in his chair, he would get a voice greeting and the TV would automatically turn on for him.

Dan

On Tue, 2016-02-09 at 16:20 -0500, Dustin Robinson wrote:
I use mostly PIR sensors for lighting control.  I had issues in the family room while while watching TV and got around those by monitoring the HTPC.  That way if the tv is on the lights won't turn off even if the timers have expired.  You could try something as simple as a pressure sensor in your reading chair or if you always have your wallet/phone perhaps rfid or nfc sensors.  

On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 12:07 PM, kent S <[hidden email]> wrote:
if the car is fairly modern, tire pressue sensors would probably work.
they have unique serial numbers. some rtl_sdr software and a $20 dongle
is all it would take.
https://github.com/jboone/tpms

You could also use this to tell when the neighbors are home or not, so
you can turn up the stereo to deafening levels!



On Wed, 2016-02-03 at 23:36 -0600, Dan Bemowski wrote:
> When I was working with the Open Source Autometion (OSA) team, the
> software was completely object oriented.  For an automation setup you
> would define "person" objects.  There were different ways to update a
> "person" object, such as monitoring cell phones to see whose cell
> phone was at home on top of motion sensing and things.  I had also had
> some discussion back in those days on ways to do vehicle sensing to
> know whose vehicle was home, increasing the reliability of a "person"
> object.  Once you knew who was home, you could use things like
> thermostat preferences tied to that "person" object or objects.  If
> you had ways to monitor where each person was in the house and you had
> zone controlled heating and cooling, you could control different areas
> of the house based on each users temp settings.  This starts getting
> into a pretty complex system though, but could possibly be done to
> some extents.
>
>
> Dan B
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, 2016-02-03 at 15:43 -0600, kent S wrote:
> > Since Dan brought it up is there any new techniques in the area of
> > occupancy sensing?
> >
> > The most common idea I have seen is IR motion sensing, which works
> > pretty well unless you like to read.
> >
> > I haven't seen as much ont this but a video camera the software called
> > motion under linux and Mac, and I'm sure similar under windows. or maybe
> > opencv image/face recognition
> >
> > I like the idea of a combination, essentially motion running against a
> > FLIR image. using maybe something like an omron D6T-44L-06 mems thermal
> > sensor (essentially a low res IR camera)
> >
> > I've heard of electric field sensors, which I think require a grid of
> > electrified wires under the carpet. sort of a long range capacitive
> > touchscreen without the screen.
> >
> > those "ping" ultrasonic sensors might work, but seem to be short range
> > and would require some kind of servo to do scanning.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, 2016-02-02 at 18:02 -0600, Dan Bemowski wrote:
> > >
> > > Kent,
> > >
> > >
> > > To some extent it does depend on the capabilities of the thermostat,
> > > but only in that it needs to have heating and cooling capability and
> > > the ability to change them and the set points.  The logic behind it is
> > > what gives any of the thermostatsout there their features.  Putting
> > > your own spin on that logic is what I find cool.  A number of years
> > > ago I was part of a project called Open Source Automation, and one of
> > > the things they were working on was occupancy sensing and doing things
> > > like this based on knowing who was home and what their preferences
> > > were.  The things you are talking about are easy compared to some of
> > > the complexities of occupancy sensing.  I think moving things in that
> > > direction is where things should move with MisterHouse.  Sure its
> > > complex and hard, but there is a GREAT team of people behind the
> > > software and in time it will get there.
> > >
> > >
> > > Dan B
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, 2016-02-02 at 16:48 -0600, kent S wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I'm not sure if this will even rise to the $.02 level, and I know it
> > > > will add to complexity and make your job harder, but why hard code
> > > > heat/cool? based on things like latitude, time of year, and outside
> > > > temperature it should be possible to compute the right mode. The user
> > > > sets 22° and the computer/thermostat takes over. If you add in
> > > > modifiers, like "I like it a bit warmer in the winter" or "on cloudy
> > > > days add 2°" or "in spring we have the windows open, so allow more
> > > > slop", etc, then you would allow the user to set a temp, and maybe some
> > > > preferences and voila!
> > > >
> > > > This does depend a bit on the capabilities of the thermostat and assumes
> > > > the user has other sensors, but it seems to me to be worth saving room
> > > > for, even if it is an FFA (future feature adapter)
> > > >
> > > > Note: I won't be buying a thermostat with only an internet API, so I
> > > > won't be helpful for this particular model, but I am now thinking about
> > > > how this could work in mh that would allow these features and the
> > > > various "thermostat drivers" could access it.
> > > > On Mon, 2016-02-01 at 23:34 -0600, Dan Bemowski wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Just to throw my 2 cents in here, I would say you could determine it
> > > > > by checking what mode the thermostat is in.  If you base it off the
> > > > > mode and the thermostat is in heat mode, then it would be a heating
> > > > > set point, and vice versa for cooling mode.  Where it might get hairy
> > > > > is in auto mode, but I would think that for auto you could base it on
> > > > > the current temp.  If you are setting to 22 degrees and the current
> > > > > temp is 27 degrees then make it a cooling set point.  Likewise if
> > > > > setting to 22 and the temp is 18, then make it a heating set point.
> > > > >  Outside of that you may have to figure out a way to tell siri that it
> > > > > is specifically a heating or cooling set point.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Dan B.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mon, 2016-02-01 at 18:39 -0700, H Plato wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Further to Garry’s email, I’ve got the last Homebridge category ‘Thermostats’ roughly working. So ‘Siri, set the main thermostat to 22 degrees’ will trigger a MH action.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Right now that action will trigger a subroutine in a common code module. Since I have a venstar and nest, I’ve managed to get those working. Should be straightforward to connect other thermostats.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > However, here’s my question. ‘Set the main thermostat to 22 degrees’ can mean either setting a heating or cooling setpoint. The nest has a ‘target temperature’ that should work, and for the venstars, I check if they are set to heating mode (then use a heat setpoint) or cooling / auto mode (then use a cool setpoint).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The insteon thermostats have heating and cooling setpoint routines.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Anyone have any suggestions or logic that might make sense? I thought maybe if it’s june - sept, then assume a cooling setpoint, however this only works for us northern latitude folks. This could be a config_param setting, but that seams cumbersome. Maybe based on outside temps, but what should the range be?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Any ideas or suggestions?
> > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
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> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
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> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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Re: Occupancy Sensing

kent S
I have problems with Jesse too, but they are off topic.

 I read the raspberry pi site and it looks like the need for jesse is to
get an on screen keyboard. If you don't mind some pain (compile time),
you could probably make it work.

 You also could wait, someone will likely fix the jesse/kodi problem in
the not too distant future.

Seems to me car occupancy is fairly easy, its a confined space. flex or
pressure sensors in the seats. very few people stand up in a car, and
the ones that do should probably be in booster seats. You could tap into
the seat belt sensors, but that may be asking for trouble.


On Fri, 2016-02-26 at 00:23 -0600, Dan Bemowski wrote:

> My most recent endeavor that I am working on is a car PC made with a
> Raspberry pi.  I saw a youtube video
> (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRb0gY0AAH0) with a promising looking
> project that uses KODI to create the interface for the computer.  My
> current hurdle in this that I am trying to overcome is that the OS
> that is used in the build shown in the video is Raspbian Wheezy.  It
> looks like he is using an HDMI LCD touch screen.  I am trying mine
> with one of the new 7" touch screens made for the Pi.  The problem is
> that they say to get the touch screen to work you have to use the most
> recent build of Rasbian which is Jesse.  I am having issues getting
> KODI to work correctly with this version.  I will have more time to
> play with it after Tuesday.
>
>
> Once I get that running, I think I will look at some tweaks to it to
> for car occupancy sensing, and feeding information about my car to
> MH.  I will try to post some progress reports after I get into it
> more.
>
>
> Dan B.
>
>
> On Thu, 2016-02-25 at 12:48 -0800, Brian Rudy wrote:
> > Over the years I have used a couple different methods for occupancy
> > detection with varying levels of success. I don't see a one size
> > fits all solution that would work for everyone, but take from this
> > what you will.
> >
> > From 2000-2008 I used X10 motion sensors for room-level occupancy
> > detection. I had the motion sensors placed in all rooms inside the
> > house, as well as outside in view of both of the two entrances. This
> > worked fairly well as long as there was a single occupant, but not
> > so well when there were two or more occupants. I had to place the
> > house in "party mode" so the lights didn't shut off unexpectedly
> > when we were occupying different rooms in the house. The system
> > operated on the assumption that the room to most recently see motion
> > was occupied, and that any other rooms were not. Timers were set (or
> > reset) upon detection of motion, and if a timer expired while a room
> > was assumed to be unoccupied, the corresponding light was turned
> > off. You can see an older version of the code that I used here:
> > https://github.com/hollie/misterhouse/blob/stable/code/public/monitor_occupancy_brian.pl
> >
> > We moved to an apartment in 2008 and from 2008-2014 I used
> > xAP-bluetooth (to detect the presence of my wife' or my smartphone)
> > to detect house-level occupancy. This was fairly error prone, and
> > often had issues where a phone would go mute and stop responding for
> > a while. As a result, MH was unable to see the corresponding phone,
> > and assumed that occupant had left for a few minutes, and then
> > returned.
> >
> > We moved to a house again in 2014 and started using the geofencing
> > features of the Tasker/IFTTT apps for Android/iOS to detect
> > house-level occupancy. Budget permitting, I plan to add more
> > lighting control which would benefit from room-level occupancy
> > detection. Now that we have a larger family and more guests, this is
> > a tricky proposition.
> >
> > lookign to the future, I have experimented with using IP security
> > cameras and OpenCV to detect, identify and track faces in a video
> > stream. The intent was to leverage security cameras from the house
> > to identify and track the house occupants for 2D occupancy
> > detection. This requires a sufficient number of cameras to keep the
> > majority of the interior of the house in view, and sufficient
> > processing power on the system running the OpenCV code to be usable.
> > My PoC code worked reasonably well, can handle multiple IP camera
> > feeds, and takes advantage of OpenCL-enabled GPUs, but still needs
> > some work to be usable. I'll probably get back to working on it once
> > we install more cameras, but it may be a while. Feel free to play
> > with the PoC code here: https://github.com/rudybrian/tuFace
> >
> > I'm also keeping an eye on BLE (Bluetooth Low Energy) beacons and
> > corresponding Android/iOS support for the "Physical Web" as a
> > possible alternative for room-level occupancy detection. This has
> > promise, but the primary use cases I have seen require user
> > interaction/confirmation so wouldn't be suitable for automated
> > occupancy detection as-is.
> >
> >
> > Cheers!
> > -Brian
> >
> >
> > On 2/9/16 16:15, Dan Bemowski wrote:
> >
> > > There was a post years ago on the X10 forums about a guy who was
> > > using X10 DS10A wireless sensors connected to his Lazy Boy.  When
> > > he would sit in his chair, he would get a voice greeting and the
> > > TV would automatically turn on for him.
> > >
> > >
> > > Dan
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, 2016-02-09 at 16:20 -0500, Dustin Robinson wrote:
> > > > I use mostly PIR sensors for lighting control.  I had issues in
> > > > the family room while while watching TV and got around those by
> > > > monitoring the HTPC.  That way if the tv is on the lights won't
> > > > turn off even if the timers have expired.  You could try
> > > > something as simple as a pressure sensor in your reading chair
> > > > or if you always have your wallet/phone perhaps rfid or nfc
> > > > sensors.  
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 12:07 PM, kent S <[hidden email]>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > if the car is fairly modern, tire pressue sensors would
> > > > > probably work.
> > > > > they have unique serial numbers. some rtl_sdr software and a
> > > > > $20 dongle
> > > > > is all it would take.
> > > > > https://github.com/jboone/tpms
> > > > >
> > > > > You could also use this to tell when the neighbors are home or
> > > > > not, so
> > > > > you can turn up the stereo to deafening levels!
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, 2016-02-03 at 23:36 -0600, Dan Bemowski wrote:
> > > > > > When I was working with the Open Source Autometion (OSA)
> > > > > team, the
> > > > > > software was completely object oriented.  For an automation
> > > > > setup you
> > > > > > would define "person" objects.  There were different ways to
> > > > > update a
> > > > > > "person" object, such as monitoring cell phones to see whose
> > > > > cell
> > > > > > phone was at home on top of motion sensing and things.  I
> > > > > had also had
> > > > > > some discussion back in those days on ways to do vehicle
> > > > > sensing to
> > > > > > know whose vehicle was home, increasing the reliability of a
> > > > > "person"
> > > > > > object.  Once you knew who was home, you could use things
> > > > > like
> > > > > > thermostat preferences tied to that "person" object or
> > > > > objects.  If
> > > > > > you had ways to monitor where each person was in the house
> > > > > and you had
> > > > > > zone controlled heating and cooling, you could control
> > > > > different areas
> > > > > > of the house based on each users temp settings.  This starts
> > > > > getting
> > > > > > into a pretty complex system though, but could possibly be
> > > > > done to
> > > > > > some extents.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Dan B
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Wed, 2016-02-03 at 15:43 -0600, kent S wrote:
> > > > > > > Since Dan brought it up is there any new techniques in the
> > > > > area of
> > > > > > > occupancy sensing?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The most common idea I have seen is IR motion sensing,
> > > > > which works
> > > > > > > pretty well unless you like to read.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I haven't seen as much ont this but a video camera the
> > > > > software called
> > > > > > > motion under linux and Mac, and I'm sure similar under
> > > > > windows. or maybe
> > > > > > > opencv image/face recognition
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I like the idea of a combination, essentially motion
> > > > > running against a
> > > > > > > FLIR image. using maybe something like an omron D6T-44L-06
> > > > > mems thermal
> > > > > > > sensor (essentially a low res IR camera)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I've heard of electric field sensors, which I think
> > > > > require a grid of
> > > > > > > electrified wires under the carpet. sort of a long range
> > > > > capacitive
> > > > > > > touchscreen without the screen.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > those "ping" ultrasonic sensors might work, but seem to be
> > > > > short range
> > > > > > > and would require some kind of servo to do scanning.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Tue, 2016-02-02 at 18:02 -0600, Dan Bemowski wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Kent,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > To some extent it does depend on the capabilities of the
> > > > > thermostat,
> > > > > > > > but only in that it needs to have heating and cooling
> > > > > capability and
> > > > > > > > the ability to change them and the set points.  The
> > > > > logic behind it is
> > > > > > > > what gives any of the thermostatsout there their
> > > > > features.  Putting
> > > > > > > > your own spin on that logic is what I find cool.  A
> > > > > number of years
> > > > > > > > ago I was part of a project called Open Source
> > > > > Automation, and one of
> > > > > > > > the things they were working on was occupancy sensing
> > > > > and doing things
> > > > > > > > like this based on knowing who was home and what their
> > > > > preferences
> > > > > > > > were.  The things you are talking about are easy
> > > > > compared to some of
> > > > > > > > the complexities of occupancy sensing.  I think moving
> > > > > things in that
> > > > > > > > direction is where things should move with MisterHouse.
> > > > > Sure its
> > > > > > > > complex and hard, but there is a GREAT team of people
> > > > > behind the
> > > > > > > > software and in time it will get there.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Dan B
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Tue, 2016-02-02 at 16:48 -0600, kent S wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I'm not sure if this will even rise to the $.02 level,
> > > > > and I know it
> > > > > > > > > will add to complexity and make your job harder, but
> > > > > why hard code
> > > > > > > > > heat/cool? based on things like latitude, time of
> > > > > year, and outside
> > > > > > > > > temperature it should be possible to compute the right
> > > > > mode. The user
> > > > > > > > > sets 22° and the computer/thermostat takes over. If
> > > > > you add in
> > > > > > > > > modifiers, like "I like it a bit warmer in the winter"
> > > > > or "on cloudy
> > > > > > > > > days add 2°" or "in spring we have the windows open,
> > > > > so allow more
> > > > > > > > > slop", etc, then you would allow the user to set a
> > > > > temp, and maybe some
> > > > > > > > > preferences and voila!
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > This does depend a bit on the capabilities of the
> > > > > thermostat and assumes
> > > > > > > > > the user has other sensors, but it seems to me to be
> > > > > worth saving room
> > > > > > > > > for, even if it is an FFA (future feature adapter)
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Note: I won't be buying a thermostat with only an
> > > > > internet API, so I
> > > > > > > > > won't be helpful for this particular model, but I am
> > > > > now thinking about
> > > > > > > > > how this could work in mh that would allow these
> > > > > features and the
> > > > > > > > > various "thermostat drivers" could access it.
> > > > > > > > > On Mon, 2016-02-01 at 23:34 -0600, Dan Bemowski wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Just to throw my 2 cents in here, I would say you
> > > > > could determine it
> > > > > > > > > > by checking what mode the thermostat is in.  If you
> > > > > base it off the
> > > > > > > > > > mode and the thermostat is in heat mode, then it
> > > > > would be a heating
> > > > > > > > > > set point, and vice versa for cooling mode.  Where
> > > > > it might get hairy
> > > > > > > > > > is in auto mode, but I would think that for auto you
> > > > > could base it on
> > > > > > > > > > the current temp.  If you are setting to 22 degrees
> > > > > and the current
> > > > > > > > > > temp is 27 degrees then make it a cooling set point.
> > > > > Likewise if
> > > > > > > > > > setting to 22 and the temp is 18, then make it a
> > > > > heating set point.
> > > > > > > > > >  Outside of that you may have to figure out a way to
> > > > > tell siri that it
> > > > > > > > > > is specifically a heating or cooling set point.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Dan B.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On Mon, 2016-02-01 at 18:39 -0700, H Plato wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Further to Garry’s email, I’ve got the last
> > > > > Homebridge category ‘Thermostats’ roughly working. So ‘Siri,
> > > > > set the main thermostat to 22 degrees’ will trigger a MH
> > > > > action.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Right now that action will trigger a subroutine in
> > > > > a common code module. Since I have a venstar and nest, I’ve
> > > > > managed to get those working. Should be straightforward to
> > > > > connect other thermostats.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > However, here’s my question. ‘Set the main
> > > > > thermostat to 22 degrees’ can mean either setting a heating or
> > > > > cooling setpoint. The nest has a ‘target temperature’ that
> > > > > should work, and for the venstars, I check if they are set to
> > > > > heating mode (then use a heat setpoint) or cooling / auto mode
> > > > > (then use a cool setpoint).
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > The insteon thermostats have heating and cooling
> > > > > setpoint routines.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Anyone have any suggestions or logic that might
> > > > > make sense? I thought maybe if it’s june - sept, then assume a
> > > > > cooling setpoint, however this only works for us northern
> > > > > latitude folks. This could be a config_param setting, but that
> > > > > seams cumbersome. Maybe based on outside temps, but what
> > > > > should the range be?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Any ideas or suggestions?
> > > > > > > > > > >
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